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Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

In the rebuild of my RV-8 recently, I managed to get a scratch in the lens of both the Garmin SL-30 and the Garmin GTX-327. No biggie, I thought, I'll just order up a replacement and stick them in, much like I did on the King KX-125 on the RV-6.



I called up Pacific Coast Avionics today to order the parts and was told the following: Garmin will not sell the lens. Yup, you hear that right. My only option is to return both units to Garmin for a "factory repair" and the MINIMUM charge will be $535 for EACH unit! That is $1070 to replace two $4 pieces of plastic! That is simply outrageous! Frankly, criminal behavior.



I will NOT be buying ANY future Garmin products. I refuse to do business with a company that treats their customers this way. Unacceptable.

-

Matt Dralle



RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

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http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

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Status: 182+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying!



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Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode!



Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

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Matt Dralle
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:17 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Shoot - tell me about it.  I had three failures in a new GTN-650 of which

Garmin covered one.  On top of that their customer service is horrible.



I'd love another option besides Garmin but if you want a GPS IFR bird you

are lock into them or the other grossly overpriced options.  I keep pressing

Dynon to get them as direct competitors to Garmin - but they are keeping

their cards close to the chest.



I do note that there is no reason to ever buy a Garmin communication radio

or transponder as there are viable alternatives (e.g. Dynon).



Carl



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stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:19 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

This doesn't sound right. Sounds to me like someone just didn't want to deal

with you (and it likely wasn't Garmin in this case).  I don't know what or

how you handled yourself, but sometimes you'll get more with honey than with

vinegar - or perhaps the person you spoke with perhaps was slightly

mis-informed.



To be blunt, the lenses should be readily available (at least they were last

time we got some). I'm sorry they aren't a $4 piece of plexi (there is some

fancy schmancy coatings on them and such), but the GTX lens is around $26

and I think the SL lens around $65.



My recommendation would be to calm down a bit, sit back and take a breath

before indicting Garmin in their entirety based on a conversation with one

person.



Not defending anyone or indicting or flaming anyone, but your experience

just sounds like we don't have the "whole story".....might I humbly suggest

that before blasting this to every list you manage that you perhaps speak to

someone else first (or maybe even Garmin directly)?



Cheers,

Stein



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Matt Dralle
Site Admin

Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 26321
Location: Livermore CA USA

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Before making my original post, I had contacted two different Avionics shops and received the exact same story, so I didn't base my findings on a single vendor. I have subsequently contacted Garmin directly and was told that the parts are in fact orderable by dealers. But, when those same avionics dealers call the Garmin parts department they are told they are not allowed to order those parts. So, something is definitely not quite lining up here. I guess I apologize to the community for venting my frustration with this process, but this really shouldn't be this difficult. I will follow up with more information on this debacle as it hopefully progresses. 



Btw, the lens part number for the SL-30 is 308-3201-42 and the lens for the GTX-327 is 470-00034-00.



Matt



At 11:14 AM 6/17/2015 Wednesday, Matt Dralle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  In the rebuild of my RV-8 recently, I managed to get a scratch in the lens of both the Garmin SL-30 and the Garmin GTX-327. No biggie, I thought, I'll just order up a replacement and stick them in, much like I did on the King KX-125 on the RV-6.



I called up Pacific Coast Avionics today to order the parts and was told the following: Garmin will not sell the lens. Yup, you hear that right. My only option is to return both units to Garmin for a "factory repair" and the MINIMUM charge will be $535 for EACH unit! That is $1070 to replace two $4 pieces of plastic! That is simply outrageous! Frankly, criminal behavior.



I will NOT be buying ANY future Garmin products. I refuse to do business with a company that treats their customers this way. Unacceptable.



-

Matt Dralle


	


-

Matt Dralle



RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

Status: 182+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying!



RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode!



Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Matt,



First let me say thank you for maintaining this site, where posts critical of certain companies are allowed. I noticed that "the other" site - which collects advertising money from Garmin - has quickly removed your criticism, which of course was against their own self-interests.



No question Garmin is a virtual monopoly, and sometimes they act like it. Some things I understand, like not allowing users to build their own harnesses. There are just too many builders who make mistakes, then want warranty service to fix what they've burned out. But to not sell you parts once you're out of warranty is just being a bully. This is just the way monopolies work. Price any sole-source part from Lycoming, say a simple push-rod, and you'll be shocked at the price.



The one that gets me is the 240 audio panel. In the 21st century, when everyone else has figured out how to protect the output amplifier from a direct short electronically, Garmin put in a fuse. Internal. So if you wire for stereo, someone inserts a mono plug, you can blow the fuse. To keep your warranty valid it has to go back to Garmin for their fixed price repair. When it really was a poor design that failed to begin with. At the very least, they could have mounted the fuse in an accessible holder, user-friendly for service.



To the other post, I'd say that Dynon will never compete in the IFR GPS game. It takes too big of an initial investment, for the R&D/Certification costs, for a company their size. And they know that Garmin, having written off development costs some time ago, could undercut their price so that Dynon would never recover their costs. You'll notice that the new "competition" (King and Avidyne) have chosen not to compete head to head with Garmin on price. That's the "cost" of ridiculously over the top regulations.

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Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:36 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Bob, 

I had a similar issue with S-Tec when they were starting their 'get bought out by the next company' period.  Their autopilot has soldered in fuses.  They wanted me to pull the unit an send it to a authorized installer to even touch it.   I was able to replace the soldered in fuses with replaceable fuse / receptacle units.  Not a problem since and the next one will not be from them.


Ralph



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


<div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu> </div><div>Date:06/17/2015  22:18  (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com </div><div>Subject: RV10-List: Re: Reconsider Garmin Purchases </div><div>

</div>


Matt,


First let me say thank you for maintaining this site, where posts critical of certain companies are allowed. I noticed that "the other" site - which collects advertising money from Garmin - has quickly removed your criticism, which of course was against their own self-interests.


No question Garmin is a virtual monopoly, and sometimes they act like it. Some things I understand, like not allowing users to build their own harnesses. There are just too many builders who make mistakes, then want warranty service to fix what they've burned out. But to not sell you parts once you're out of warranty is just being a bully. This is just the way monopolies work. Price any sole-source part from Lycoming, say a simple push-rod, and you'll be shocked at the price.


The one that gets me is the 240 audio panel. In the 21st century, when everyone else has figured out how to protect the output amplifier from a direct short electronically, Garmin put in a fuse. Internal. So if you wire for stereo, someone inserts a mono plug, you can blow the fuse. To keep your warranty valid it has to go back to Garmin for their fixed price repair. When it really was a poor design that failed to begin with. At the very least, they could have mounted the fuse in an accessible holder, user-friendly for service.


To the other post, I'd say that Dynon will never compete in the IFR GPS game. It takes too big of an initial investment, for the R&D/Certification costs, for a company their size. And they know that Garmin, having written off development costs some time ago, could undercut their price so that Dynon would never recover their costs. You'll notice that the new "competition" (King and Avidyne) have chosen not to compete head to head with Garmin on price. That's the "cost" of ridiculously over the top regulations.


--------

Bob Turner

RV-10 QB





Read this topic online here:


http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=443724#443724

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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:30 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

I was an electronics test engineer for       most of my working career, working for large and small electronics       manufacturers.  I've pretty much seen it all.  The small companies       have to rely on really good technicians to troubleshoot       manufacturing problems where the large companies invested lots of       $$ in test equipment to do that job.  Whenever a 'repair/return'       comes in it has to be inserted into the manufacturing process for       testing/repair which slows down production and impacts the       companies income as new product goes out the door.  From a company       standpoint, this is not a good thing.  Normal manufacturing errors       and resulting rework are terribly expensive, much less returns.

       

       I put Garmin in the 'big company' and S-Tec in the 'small company'       category .... simply because of their end-user market.  Lots of       Garmin GPS being used in cars .... not so many autopilots.

       

       The 'flat fee' repairs happen because it's really difficult or not       cost effective to track time/parts in a repair cycle, and should       be a 'good average' for repairs.  We live in a disposable society       where it's usually more cost effective to replace the whole unit       rather than find/replace one failing part.  I would guess that a       high 'flat fee' discourages repair/returns especially on items no       longer in production.  For a company like Garmin, it's more cost       effective to orphan a product than it is to keep it 'alive' ....       and Garmin does that fairly often.  If you can't get your unit       fixed for a reasonable price (to us, anyway) then you'll probably       buy a 'new and improved' box ..... far more profitable for the       company.

       

       Now, on to Matt's original problem.  I believe that the lens that       got scratched might be a plastic polarizing filter ..... glass       would be harder to scratch and shouldn't cause too much of a       viewing problem.  Most all LCD displays have them .... see       http://tinyurl.com/ooj5vl2 ...... which can be cut to fit .... you       have to check the orientation with the unit on to see which way       the film goes.  If the polarizing material is attached to the       glass (I would expect it to be on the 'backside' of the glass)       then go to a glass shop and have them cut you a thin piece to       cover the new material.

       

       For Ralph ..... glad you had the ability to fix your fuse       problem.  I've had to fix circuit boards for quite a few folks       that thought they had the ability ..... I'm amazed how much damage       a high wattage soldering gun can do ......

       Linn

       

       

       On 6/18/2015 8:33 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:

     

     [quote]              Bob, 

       I had a similar issue with S-Tec when they were starting         their 'get bought out by the next company' period.  Their         autopilot has soldered in fuses.  They wanted me to pull the         unit an send it to a authorized installer to even touch it.   I         was able to replace the soldered in fuses with replaceable fuse         / receptacle units.  Not a problem since and the next one will         not be from them.

       

       

       Ralph

       

     [b]

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bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Like Lynn said, It's all about the money. Big companies do not care about us the consumers and there is little we can do about it.. I have a short you know what but a long memory and try with a vengeance to avoid companies with this attitude. Sometimes it is unavoidable. I feel for you Matt



 

God Bless America

(please)  

Bruce



  



     On Thursday, June 18, 2015 6:46 AM, Linn Walters <flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com> wrote:

  

  



                    I was an electronics test engineer for       most of my working career, working for large and small electronics       manufacturers.  I've pretty much seen it all.  The small companies       have to rely on really good technicians to troubleshoot       manufacturing problems where the large companies invested lots of       $$ in test equipment to do that job.  Whenever a 'repair/return'       comes in it has to be inserted into the manufacturing process for       testing/repair which slows down production and impacts the       companies income as new product goes out the door.  From a company       standpoint, this is not a good thing.  Normal manufacturing errors       and resulting rework are terribly expensive, much less returns.

       

       I put Garmin in the 'big company' and S-Tec in the 'small company'       category .... simply because of their end-user market.  Lots of       Garmin GPS being used in cars .... not so many autopilots.

       

       The 'flat fee' repairs happen because it's really difficult or not       cost effective to track time/parts in a repair cycle, and should       be a 'good average' for repairs.  We live in a disposable society       where it's usually more cost effective to replace the whole unit       rather than find/replace one failing part.  I would guess that a       high 'flat fee' discourages repair/returns especially on items no       longer in production.  For a company like Garmin, it's more cost       effective to orphan a product than it is to keep it 'alive' ....       and Garmin does that fairly often.  If you can't get your unit       fixed for a reasonable price (to us, anyway) then you'll probably       buy a 'new and improved' box ..... far more profitable for the       company.

       

       Now, on to Matt's original problem.  I believe that the lens that       got scratched might be a plastic polarizing filter ..... glass       would be harder to scratch and shouldn't cause too much of a       viewing problem.  Most all LCD displays have them .... see       http://tinyurl.com/ooj5vl2 ...... which can be cut to fit .... you       have to check the orientation with the unit on to see which way       the film goes.  If the polarizing material is attached to the       glass (I would expect it to be on the 'backside' of the glass)       then go to a glass shop and have them cut you a thin piece to       cover the new material.

       

       For Ralph ..... glad you had the ability to fix your fuse       problem.  I've had to fix circuit boards for quite a few folks       that thought they had the ability ..... I'm amazed how much damage       a high wattage soldering gun can do ......

       Linn

       

       

       On 6/18/2015 8:33 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                Bob, 

       I had a similar issue with S-Tec when they were starting         their 'get bought out by the next company' period.  Their         autopilot has soldered in fuses.  They wanted me to pull the         unit an send it to a authorized installer to even touch it.   I         was able to replace the soldered in fuses with replaceable fuse         / receptacle units.  Not a problem since and the next one will         not be from them.

       

       

       Ralph

       

     



ronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

ronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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jump2(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:20 pm Post subject: Reconsider Garmin Purchases

Hey Matt don't feel bad it took garmin 6 yrs to get wx500 lighting on our g500 and then had to wait 2 months to get the bigger, $200 data card, we have to have,I ordered at SNF. Got it last week. Then four days later service bulletin on soft ware keys are backwards.

 They have problems.

 Patrick Thyssen 

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jun 17, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Matt Dralle <dralle(at)matronics.com> wrote:

 Before making my original post, I had contacted two different Avionics shops and received the exact same story, so I didn't base my findings on a single vendor. I have subsequently contacted Garmin directly and was told that the parts are in fact orderable by dealers. But, when those same avionics dealers call the Garmin parts department they are told they are not allowed to order those parts. So, something is definitely not quite lining up here. I guess I apologize to the community for venting my frustration with this process, but this really shouldn't be this difficult. I will follow up with more information on this debacle as it hopefully progresses. 

 Btw, the lens part number for the SL-30 is 308-3201-42 and the lens for the GTX-327 is 470-00034-00.

 Matt

 At 11:14 AM 6/17/2015 Wednesday, Matt Dralle wrote:

> In the rebuild of my RV-8 recently, I managed to get a scratch in the lens of both the Garmin SL-30 and the Garmin GTX-327. No biggie, I thought, I'll just order up a replacement and stick them in, much like I did on the King KX-125 on the RV-6.

> 

> I called up Pacific Coast Avionics today to order the parts and was told the following: Garmin will not sell the lens. Yup, you hear that right. My only option is to return both units to Garmin for a "factory repair" and the MINIMUM charge will be $535 for EACH unit! That is $1070 to replace two $4 pieces of plastic! That is simply outrageous! Frankly, criminal behavior.

> 

> I will NOT be buying ANY future Garmin products. I refuse to do business with a company that treats their customers this way. Unacceptable.

> 

> -

> Matt Dralle

 -

 Matt Dralle

 RV-8 #82880 N998RV "Ruby Vixen"

 http://www.mattsrv8.com - Matt's Complete RV-8 Construction Log

 http://www.mattsrv8.com/Mishap - Landing Mishap Rebuild Log

 http://www.youtube.com/MattsRV8 - Matt's RV-8 HDTV YouTube Channel

 Status: 182+ Hours TTSN - Version 2.0 Now Flying!

 RV-6 #20916 N360EM "The Flyer"

 http://www.mattsrv6.com - Matt's RV-6 Revitalization Log

 Status: 300+ Hours - Full Flyer Mode!

 Matt's Livermore Airport Live ATC Stream!

 Check out the live ATC stream directly from my hangar at the Livermore

 Airport.  Includes both Tower and Ground transmissions.  Archives too!

 For entertainment purposes only.  http://klvk.matronics.com

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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