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Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

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Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:53 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.



What do you chaps tend to do? 



XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:55 pm Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

 	  Quote: 	
		  From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???

Dave
	




Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.

 

 What do you chaps tend to do? 

 

 XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:08 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

I use 20 dog and maintain little back pressure to keep nose light. Lifts off smooth. Haven't found much advantage in using full flap. 



Alan



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 1 Aug 2015, at 08:54, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

 

 

 

> From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???

 Dave

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 

> On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.

> 

> What do you chaps tend to do? 

> 

> XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.

Remi Guerner

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Amen to that. Although the mono gets off the ground very nicely it will not climb well nor gather speed very well until you have the flaps up, so in practice I level off 10ft or so off the ground to gain enough speed to pull the gear & flaps up before climbing. None of that is ideal and could be a serious issue in some circumstances so I certainly wouldn't think it a good idea for trikes to take off with any more flap than they can climb comfortably with to the sort of height where you can afford to take your eye off the main business of flying in order to deal with reducing flap. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ, mono 914.  

 

On 2015-08-01 12:26, Remi Guerner wrote: [quote]  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>



I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.

Remi Guerner





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445471#445471



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 [b]

Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:58 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Remi’s post below begs the question as to why short-wing-mono builders have not decoupled flaps from the LG by using the electric flap mechanism of the trigger…?...or made the modification after recognizing the condition he describes.

Or am I unconsciously looking for a rationale to further delay that first flight?



Fred



PS: BTW, here is the latest speedod for the mono, )



[img]cid:F9637C06-5BE9-4AB0-A0D3-458EC4660638(at)Home[/img]

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Aug 1, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)> wrote:

I consider the compulsory 27 degree flap setting of the monowheel to be a big inconvenience on take off. The aircraft levitates at low speed close to the ground before having enough speed to start the climb and allowing the flaps/gear to be retracted. During those few seconds, the aircraft is very sensitive to wind gusts, especially in a crosswind and that is a potentially dangerous situation. I would love to be able to take off with 5 or 10 degrees of flaps. But I would not exchange my speedy monowheel for a trigear.

DSCN8282.jpeg

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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

I was type converted by Andy Draper who was chief pilot at Europa before he joined theLAA engineering dept.



I taught me and demoed take of in a tri gear at 18 degrees, he did at the time remark that it is laa mono possible to climb out at full flap, but there must be a reason for the 18 degrees? It works well for me fwiw



I must remark that a couple of hours flying with Andy is so enlightening......



David Joyce

The other one



Sent from the iPad of David Joyce

www.eastmidsspas.com



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 1 Aug 2015, at 08:54, david park <dpark748(at)icloud.com> wrote:

 

 

 

> From Sleap i use 20deg less drag in case of engine failure. Maybe better glide choice of landing area???

 Dave

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 

> On 31 Jul 2015, at 17:53, Rick Moss <Rkwmoss(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> It was recently suggested to me to try taking off with full flap; figuring that the mono guys do this all the time, I gave it a go (having previously always used around half flap). It seemed to lift the nose very much earlier and lift off of it's own volition quite readily, whereas with half flap a pretty firm aft input is required to rotate and lift off around 50kts.

> 

> What do you chaps tend to do? 

> 

> XS Trigear 912S CS prop, normally flown from grass around MTOW.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=445452#445452

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:20 pm Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Remi

No reason why you couldn't fit the electric flap drive of the tri gear is there?

Graham

  



     On Saturday, 1 August 2015, 22:50, Nigel Graham <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> wrote:

  

  



 





  

 

  



 [quote][b]

europa471

Joined: 08 Apr 2009
Posts: 35

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:11 pm Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Graham

     

     Surely the Justin Kennedy/Ted Gladstone design has the LAA blessing?

     

     That is what I have modelled mine on.

     

     Regards

     

     Lance Sandford in OZ

     

     On 02/08/15 08:16, GRAHAM SINGLETON       wrote:

     

     [quote]                Remi

         No reason why you couldn't fit the electric flap drive of           the tri gear is there?

         Graham

         

         

         

         

           

         

                                                  On Saturday,                   1 August 2015, 22:50, Nigel Graham                   <nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk> (nigel_graham(at)m-tecque.co.uk) wrote:

                  

               

               

               

                 

                 

                 

               

             

           

         

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Hi all,

This is a question that can only be answered by a careful,

thoughtful test program. No one offs, please.



In old flapped Pipers, it is a common trick to suddenly pull

flaps to half or full when nearing Vr. One jumps off the ground

with little deceleration. It is a cowboy stunt. A moment of 

wind shift or inattention and you are back on the ground - hard.



In a trigear like mine, this is a useless

thought since the flap motor is so slow.

Down here in Georgia where my field

is often at 3,000 - 3,500 density and 2400

in length, I usually use 5-10 of flaps but it is hard to see much difference.

_________________
Ira N224XS

richard.holder(at)outlook
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

On 08/08/2015 01:43, rampil wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In a trigear like mine, this is a useless

 thought since the flap motor is so slow.

 Down here in Georgia where my field

 is often at 3,000 - 3,500 density and 2400

 in length, I usually use 5-10 of flaps but it is hard to see much difference.


	


Are you saying you use 5-10 of flaps for take-off ?



Mine stays on the ground for ages if I forget (!) to put 

the flaps down !



I use 15 degrees on tarmac and 19 on grass.



With a 10 knot headwind I am off in 250 yards on tarmac 

and 350 yards on grass (if it isn't too bumpy which messes 

up the aerodynamics), Density altitude is normally about 

300 feet though.



HTH



Richard Holder

G-OWWW

Europa Tri-Gear

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Hi Richard,



Yes.



When I was based at latitude 41N and had a 4500 concrete runway at

sea level, I never used flaps for T/O. Never had a performance issue, but I

will admit to not carefully collecting flight test data on take off run. Sadly,

my BlueMountain data logging feature was discontinued in my G4 making

new collection more onerous.



At latitude 33 where the average temp feels 20Â°F warmer, more humid,

and starting at 900' AGL, my habit is to use a small amount of flap on

my grass strip. Recall that with our flaps, lift increases in the early part

of travel and less in the late travel whereas drag increases mostly in the

late travel. Without flight test and therefore only my opinion/experience

5 - 10Â° of flaps increases lift (and minimally at t/o speed, induced drag) 

and minimally increases form drag. Perhaps at half flap the lift is maxed

out without too much extra drag, I would think at 19Â° you are getting 

more drag without much more lift. My strip is far too rough to take careful

measurements, but perhaps Europa could try a wee bit of CFD since they

have the form data and the software.



Cheers,

_________________
Ira N224XS

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Hi Ira,



In the more regulated UK world I suspect Europa did quite a bit of flight

testing to arrive at the take off flap setting of 18 deg. quoted in the

section 5 of their Owners Manual.  Regarding CFD I know that the current

Europa (Swift) had a bit of trouble getting the Europa form into their

computer as some of it  was originally designed and built using Nigel

Graham's CAD system ( Cardboard Aided Design).



Regards



Brian Davies



--

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Takeoff technique and runway minima (trigear)

Hi Brian,



Interesting!



The reason I suggested CFD was that I had been told that one of the

first things David did on acquiring Europa was to obtain a high res 3D

laser scan model for CFD (and manufacturing).



As for my use of less flaps, that was based on my initial 40 hr flight 

test program at KZPH in 2004. ZPH has long paved runways near SL.

Acceleration to 50 kt was faster with minimal flaps selected than half flaps.

This may have been impacted by my C.G. being rather forward and, having

just moved my main battery to the rear fuselage, I will reexamine the issue.

_________________
Ira N224XS

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