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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: Customers are an interesting lot |
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Or maybe I should say, ‘people are an interesting lot.’
I’ve been working on other people’s planes for 30 years. All total, I’ve worked on over 300 different planes; including a Cessna 210, a Cessna 182, a Cessna 177, a Cessna 175, a Cessna 172, 2 Mooney M20s, a Mooney 231, 2 Piper Comanches, a Beech Musketeer, 3 different Beech Bonanzas, 2 Citabrias, a Piper Pacer and a whole lot of Grummans. I’ve had customers fly from as far away as Missouri to get their plane worked on. We currently have about 40 customers from San Diego to Seattle and as far east as Utah; about a tank of gas each way.
I’ve learned a lot about people in 30 years.
I’ve had customers who were poor day laborers scraping by just to fly, a retired F-105 fighter who told great stories of sorties over Vietnam, a couple of F-16 fighter pilots, a Lt General in the California Air National Guard, several computer engineers, several self employed house builders & property managers, a couple of airport managers, owners of petroleum distributers, an Under Sheriff for LA County, two architects, several Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, and Aerospace engineers, several University Professors, a couple of High School teachers, a retired surveyor for the State of California, a couple of California Fire Fighters, a developer from Canada, several airline pilots, a couple of lawyers, and many more than I can recall.
I had no idea how to charge for annuals when I started. The avionics guy in Lancaster charged $50/hr so that’s what I charged. That avionics guy and I are still good friends. He charges $110/hr now and has more work than he knows what to do with.
I started doing owner assisted annuals almost right from the beginning. It took a while to figure out how to charge for owner assist. One customer, about 1992, suggested I just charge for the time I am working on the plane and forget the flat rate charge. I told him it would cost him more. He said it was worth it. So, that is how I do it now.
While in Lancaster, I would set up my futon couch for out-of-town customers doing an owner assisted annual. I could help them and it kept the cost of the annuals down. I continued that service after I moved to Auburn. Oddly, I’ve had a couple of customers who’d rather stay in a motel than sleep n a futon couch; go figure. Now that I have a house with a spare room, we, my wife Clytie and I, have hosted MANY customers. They are treated to home-cooked Philipino food for dinner each night and home-cooked American breakfasts; the longest stay was just over a week. We have a couple of customers who insist on treating us to meals out.
We’ve had customers buy us tools, wine, Scotch, plane tickets, pay $100/hr driving time to their airports to work on their planes, pay a $1000 finders fee for an airplane they bought when the seller was too cheap to pay the $5000 promised they'd pay me to sell his plane and then changed their minds after the deal (this has happened twice), customers who give my wife and I free trips, customers who offer us room and board when we visit their neck-of-the-woods and I’ve had customers loan me money (as much as $10,000) to get me through some very dry spells. In 2006, I had one customer (the Lt General) who threatened to stop bringing his plane to me because I didn’t charge for all the work I did; he insisted on paying for every nut, screw, terminal end and every minute I worked on his plane. Sometime around 1999, I flew to Prescott, Arizona to help a customer who had a plane that wouldn’t start and needed a starter; I did it for free. Sometime around 2003, I had a customer with a broken rudder spring in North Las Vegas. I flew over there and changed the springs in 115 degree temps for the cost of fuel. These were customers who always went out of their way to help me; it was the least I could do.
And, on the flip side, I’ve had good customers who would load up their planes with free water and goodies from my refrigerator just because. I’ve had customers who pay their bills on monthly installments and ask for discounts even after I’ve already discounted the invoice. I’ve had customers who complain the bill is too high or that is shouldn’t take 20-40 hours to strip the fuel tank sealant out of a wing and reseal it or that I overcharge for parts [note: I generally sell at retail cost for everything]. The really expensive stuff I sell at or near my cost and make money on the installation and yet, some customers still complain.
Most, if not all, of our customers have became long term friends. In 30 years, I’ve only refused to work on 4 planes. Not because of the planes (except for 2-seaters. I’ve refused many 2-seaters. I work on one 2-seater BECAUSE of the owner. He’s a terrific guy.), but because of the owners. Quite frankly, I’m too busy to deal with customers who lack integrity, who second guess everything I do, who question my ethics or the way I charge, or those owners I just don’t like.
To all [well, most all] of my customers, past and present, you make my life worth while. Thanks.
Gary
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rcmutz
Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:01 am Post subject: Customers are an interesting lot |
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Gary,
Just catching up on some of the TeamGrumman postings.
Interesting perspective and information.
I always believed that a man has to earn a living. My AnP that I have used for almost 8 years now charges $70/hr. His flat rate for annual is $850. He knocks $100 off for my one day I spend opening ALL access panels, removing plugs and cleaning and gapping, and changing oil/filter/cutting filter. He will bill out for any work beyond the annual inspection on a 1/4 hr basis and always discusses what he wants to do with an estimate before proceeding.
I think I have a good relationship and appreciate HIS honesty and integrity
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:05 pm Post subject: Customers are an interesting lot |
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Richard,
I think I charged $75/hr in 2002. The last $850 annual (1974 Traveler) I did was in 2006. That particular annual was on a plane I knew intimately. The owner brought the plane to me without the co-pilot’s seat, no wheel pants, and when he got here, we removed everything that could be removed, we inspected everything, and put it back together (seat and wheel pants in the back of the plane). My rate then was $85/hr. We spent 10 hours on the annual. The owner of this plane is one of only a couple of owners that I’d trust working on his own plane without supervision.
You would need to look at the records I keep and the routine maintenance I do to completely understand the in-depth inspections I do. My fixed flat rate annual price is $1500. That rate hasn’t changed since 2006. “IF” I can work on the same plane every year, I can learn and document everything that needs to be done. I can do the basic 18 hours of inspection in about 15 hours if I know the plane well. This helps the owner and me. Periodic inspections like wheel bearings, elevator trim, and anything else I find that needs to be fixed are extra and charged at the shop rate of $105/hr. Incidentally, the shop in Nevada County (12 miles by air north of here) charges $2200 flat rate and does wheel bearings every year. I do wheel bearings every other year and charge 5 hours for it. So, every other year mine would be $2100 as a comparison.
“IF” I don’t know the plane, the first annual could take as much as a week. And I’ve seen them cost a LOT.
Anecdote (1): Got a plane (1977 Tiger I’d never seen before) that had been maintained by a mechanic in Columbia, CA. Wing access covers leaking like crazy. The owner had paid his mechanic over $1000 to seal the covers. It took me two days to dig all the sealant out from around the covers and seal them properly. His spinner bulkhead was badly punched out. His bill was another $1500.
Anecdote (2): I got another plane (same mechanic from Columbia,CA) from San Jose. The owner bragged that he never paid more than $500 on an annual. The Altitude Hold on his S-Tec 30 had been disconnected. The elevator trim was so badly corroded and jammed that it would not move at all. He’d been flying this way for 5 YEARS!
Anecdote (3): I got a customer out of Temecula, CA who bragged about never paying more than $200 on an annual for 15 years. I found over 119 documented items that would ground the plane. I mean, 3 of six bolts were holding the pilot’s seat onto the spar for God’s sake. At that time my shop rate was $50/hr and his annual cost him over $7500. You pay now or you pay later.
Anecdote (4): An owner and prospective buyer came into my shop for a Pre-Purchase Inspection (for which I charge $500). The plane: a 1977 Tiger with just over 3000 hours on it. The owner told me he's done all of his own annuals on the plane for the last 20 years and tells me, “It’s in perfect condition.” He has a local guy sign off the annuals for $75. I looked at the plane for an hour and told the buyer, “Offer him $30,000. It needs a lot of work. For one thing, Home Depot hardware is not allowed.” The owner, of course, wanted $70,000 for the plane.
Anecdote (5): Every time I read on the GG about someone who has brakes that don’t work, it cracks me up. It’s a simple routine maintenance that is done every other year during wheel bearing service. I’ve never had a customer with a brake failure.
The bottom line is: to keep up on all of the maintenance and do it right, it’s going to cost you money either now or in the future when something fails.
I’m sure there are a lot of planes that are just fine and being owner maintained and are in top shape. I’m just saying, “I keep very thorough records of maintenance I do. I can tell you when you’ll need to have your . . . . inspected. I can predict when you’ll need new brake disks and linings. I can tell you the Static RPM at a particular temperature and pressure for each annual and note any outlying data that might indicate a problem.”
Here are three sample pages (of 14) of a well talked about subject plane’s inspection.
Gary
| Quote: | On Sep 1, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Richard <rcmutz(at)msn.com (rcmutz(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Gary, Just catching up on some of the TeamGrumman postings. Interesting perspective and information. I always believed that a man has to earn a living. My AnP that I have used for almost 8 years now charges $70/hr. His flat rate for annual is $850. He knocks $100 off for my one day I spend opening ALL access panels, removing plugs and cleaning and gapping, and changing oil/filter/cutting filter. He will bill out for any work beyond the annual inspection on a 1/4 hr basis and always discusses what he wants to do with an estimate before proceeding. I think I have a good relationship and appreciate HIS honesty and integrity. Glad to hear you have customers who you hold in good regard! Richard > From: teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> Subject: Customers are an interesting lot> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:20:37 -0700> To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)> > --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: Gary L Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)>> > Or maybe I should say, ‘people are an interesting lot.’> > I’ve been working on other people’s planes for 30 years. All total, I’ve worked on over 300 different planes; including a Cessna 210, a Cessna 182, a Cessna 177, a Cessna 175, a Cessna 172, 2 Mooney M20s, a Mooney 231, 2 Piper Comanches, a Beech Musketeer, 3 different Beech Bonanzas, 2 Citabrias, a Piper Pacer and a whole lot of Grummans. I’ve had customers fly from as far away as Missouri to get their plane worked on. We currently have about 40 customers from San Diego to Seattle and as far east as Utah; about a tank of gas each way. > > I’ve learned a lot about people in 30 years.> > I’ve had customers who were poor day laborers scraping by just to fly, a retired F-105 fighter who told great stories of sorties over Vietnam, a couple of F-16 fighter pilots, a Lt General in the California Air National Guard, several computer engineers, several self employed house builders & property managers, a couple of airport managers, owners of petroleum distributers, an Under Sheriff for LA County, two architects, several Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, and Aerospace engineers, several University Professors, a couple of High School teachers, a retired surveyor for the State of California, a couple of California Fire Fighters, a developer from Canada, several airline pilots, a couple of lawyers, and many more than I can recall.> > I had no idea how to charge for annuals when I started. The avionics guy in Lancaster charged $50/hr so that’s what I charged. That avionics guy and I are still good friends. He charges $110/hr now and has more work than he knows what to do with.> > I started doing owner assisted annuals almost right from the beginning. It took a while to figure out how to charge for owner assist. One customer, about 1992, suggested I just charge for the time I am working on the plane and forget the flat rate charge. I told him it would cost him more. He said it was worth it. So, that is how I do it now. > > While in Lancaster, I would set up my futon couch for out-of-town customers doing an owner assisted annual. I could help them and it kept the cost of the annuals down. I continued that service after I moved to Auburn. Oddly, I’ve had a couple of customers who’d rather stay in a motel than sleep n a futon couch; go figure. Now that I have a house with a spare room, we, my wife Clytie and I, have hosted MANY customers. They are treated to home-cooked Philipino food for dinner each night and home-cooked American breakfasts; the longest stay was just over a week. We have a couple of customers who insist on treating us to meals out.> > We’ve had customers buy us tools, wine, Scotch, plane tickets, pay $100/hr driving time to their airports to work on their planes, pay a $1000 finders fee for an airplane they bought when the seller was too cheap to pay the $5000 promised they'd pay me to sell his plane and then changed their minds after the deal (this has happened twice), customers who give my wife and I free trips, customers who offer us room and board when we visit their neck-of-the-woods and I’ve had customers loan me money (as much as $10,000) to get me through some very dry spells. In 2006, I had one customer (the Lt General) who threatened to stop bringing his plane to me because I didn’t charge for all the work I did; he insisted on paying for every nut, screw, terminal end and every minute I worked on his plane. Sometime around 1999, I flew to Prescott, Arizona to help a customer who had a plane that wouldn’t start and needed a starter; I did it for free. Sometime around 2003, I had a c!> ustomer with a broken rudder spring in North Las Vegas. I flew over there and changed the springs in 115 degree temps for the cost of fuel. These were customers who always went out of their way to help me; it was the least I could do.> > And, on the flip side, I’ve had good customers who would load up their planes with free water and goodies from my refrigerator just because. I’ve had customers who pay their bills on monthly installments and ask for discounts even after I’ve already discounted the invoice. I’ve had customers who complain the bill is too high or that is shouldn’t take 20-40 hours to strip the fuel tank sealant out of a wing and reseal it or that I overcharge for parts [note: I generally sell at retail cost for everything]. The really expensive stuff I sell at or near my cost and make money on the installation and yet, some customers still complain. > > Most, if not all, of our customers have became long term friends. In 30 years, I’ve only refused to work on 4 planes. Not because of the planes (except for 2-seaters. I’ve refused many 2-seaters. I work on one 2-seater BECAUSE of the owner. He’s a terrific guy.), but because of the owners. Quite frankly, I’m too busy to deal with customers who lack integrity, who second guess everything I do, who question my ethics or the way I charge, or those owners I just don’t like. > > To all [well, most all] of my customers, past and present, you make my life worth while. Thanks. > > Ga================> > >
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