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leeh(at)emtinternational.
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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"...tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup...nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition immediately to a gas once the pressure drops.
I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder.
Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, water laden cylinder would fare very well.
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven <leeh(at)emtinternational.com (leeh(at)emtinternational.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"..tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Â
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup..nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
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crobin(at)skyvantage.com
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:41 pm Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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I love my little compressor... Â
http://shoeboxcompressor.com/
We don't need the higher compressions, but this thing will fill your tank in a couple minutes. Â (or a spare scuba tank without having to pay for refills)
Cory.
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition immediately to a gas once the pressure drops.
I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder.
Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, water laden cylinder would fare very well.
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven <leeh(at)emtinternational.com (leeh(at)emtinternational.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"..tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Â
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup..nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
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|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:52 am Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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That is very cool. Do just use this in the hangar with an external shop air compressor, or have you tried using the residual air in the main air tank?
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I love my little compressor... Â
http://shoeboxcompressor.com/
We don't need the higher compressions, but this thing will fill your tank in a couple minutes. Â (or a spare scuba tank without having to pay for refills)
Cory.
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition immediately to a gas once the pressure drops.
I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder.
Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, water laden cylinder would fare very well.
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven <leeh(at)emtinternational.com (leeh(at)emtinternational.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"..tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Â
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup..nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
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|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:23 am Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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It provides non-breathable air. Don't use it on your scuba tanks if you plan on diving with them.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 11, 2016, at 7:52 AM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | That is very cool. Do just use this in the hangar with an external shop air compressor, or have you tried using the residual air in the main air tank?
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Cory Robin <crobin(at)skyvantage.com (crobin(at)skyvantage.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I love my little compressor...
http://shoeboxcompressor.com/
We don't need the higher compressions, but this thing will fill your tank in a couple minutes. (or a spare scuba tank without having to pay for refills)
Cory.
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com (erniel29(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Firstly I'm not sure what you mean by "CO2 transitions to vapor at 750 PSI". Solid CO2 will sublimate directly to gas at room temp. Compressing gaseous CO2 will cause it to transition to a liquid. It will transition immediately to a gas once the pressure drops.
I'm not quite sure that releasing liquid CO2 from a tank into the air lines would make it turn into a gas unless there was some space at the top of the bottle and it was standing upright. So you would be dumping liquid CO2 into the cylinder where it would violently expand. Even if it did arrive at the cylinder as an expanding gas, it would be at several hundred degrees below zero and I'm not sure what effect that would have on the piston, rings, and the cylinder itself. I would think that the rapid cooling would cause the cylinder to contract and seize the piston in place. Then theres all the water that would immediately condense in the cylinder.
Lastly, only SOME planes are able to start on nitrogen, SOME can't, probably has to do with air distributor timing. I don't think a frozen, water laden cylinder would fare very well.
Ernie
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Lee Haven <leeh(at)emtinternational.com (leeh(at)emtinternational.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"...tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup...nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
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|
|
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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leerhaven(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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Ernie, as you mentioned, the bottle would be of course be upright and therefore tapped for vapor not liquid.Â
Latent heat of vaporization would cool the bottle and contents quickly as vapor was tapped and the liquid boiled. Since it would be regaining energy from ambient air, the fill process might take 5-10 minutes (similar to boiling Freon gas into your car's AC...most put the can in a pot of warm water).
Liquefied CO2 is 600 times the density of CO2 gas. A great way to carry a very small tank and volume of material to refill the bottle. No one has ever used this? Maybe it's only a big deal because I am unwilling to hand prop!
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:07 am Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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Try it, see what happens. Let me know.
On Monday, April 11, 2016, Lee Haven <leerhaven(at)gmail.com (leerhaven(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Ernie, as you mentioned, the bottle would be of course be upright and therefore tapped for vapor not liquid.Â
Latent heat of vaporization would cool the bottle and contents quickly as vapor was tapped and the liquid boiled. Since it would be regaining energy from ambient air, the fill process might take 5-10 minutes (similar to boiling Freon gas into your car's AC...most put the can in a pot of warm water).
Liquefied CO2 is 600 times the density of CO2 gas. A great way to carry a very small tank and volume of material to refill the bottle. No one has ever used this? Maybe it's only a big deal because I am unwilling to hand prop!
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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gill.g(at)gpimail.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: Carry spare air CO2...ever leave your valve on? |
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CO2 is probably not a good idea because any moisture in your system will cause carbonic acid to form and corrode the system piping and valves.
Gill
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Lee Haven <leeh(at)emtinternational.com (leeh(at)emtinternational.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone ever used a LIQUID CO2 tank as a spare air source? They are common for paintball or beer kegs, lightweight carbon fiber, carry a DOT rating, and WAY more dense than carrying compressed gas in a pony bottle. This means you can carry a tiny thermos bottle size tank and get a FULL recharge on your main.
CO2 transitions liquid to vapor phase at 750 psi (50 bar, perfect).
1 pound of CO2 is 8.5 cubic feet of gas at STP.
The main tank is about 1 cubic foot (charge to 750 psi, 50 bar/cubic feet are needed if dead flat).
For reference, a SCUBA tank is 80 cubic feet compressed (3000 psi).
Therefore, a tiny thermos sized tank at 20 ounces would charge the main to 75 percent from half dead.
Carrying a 2.5 pound tank (about same as a MINI pony bottle) would be a full main air recharge (and under 5 pounds and 4"X15"..tiny)
I have done many 100 percent nitrogen refill starts so I know inert gas starts (such as CO2) work.
Â
Question is...i am curious to know if anyone else has tried? I would love to carry a small, lunchbox size tank to get a second chance at startup..nobody ever leaves their valve open right?
Lee Haven
Green bay formation FIGHT club
|
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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