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nico(at)nicsysco.com
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 Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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I don't disagree with you, guys.
I use Facebook for several reasons, such as personal, business, political, religious and aviation.
Personal: I have hooked up with family and friends whom I have had no possible chance of ever meeting again. Only that is cause for me to keep Facebook alive.
Business: I spent a sizable amount of sweat and tears trying to keep my customer service with my customers on an almost-instant-response basis. We are looking at testing a "secret" site on Facebook, which is what I think we may consider for an Aero Commander forum, which is limited to subscribers only.
Political: I believe that the world's liberty-loving people are under assault and I am doing my best to educate people to stand with me against the coming overthrow of democratic institutions and return the Occident to totalitarianism.
Religious: besides the fact that I am a practicing Christian (a faulty one to boot) I have been teaching the Christian doctrine for a generation or so and Facebook turned out to be reaching more truth-seekers than with any other forum that I have ever used. Education in good moral values which sustain liberty, peace and prosperity only counts in quality if quantity gets to see it.
I mention aviation last, because that is what this email is about. I cannot agree more with the Aero Commander sympathies expressed here. I owned a straight-500 and will always cherish the about 1,000 hours I put on her. However, aviation and nature in general is a fascinating matter to me, which is why I broadened the scope of my Facebook page on Aero Commanders. The helicopter flop and breakup into the ocean after an aerobatic maneuver gone bad, for example, reached almost 90,000 people!
For an exchange of ideas, parts, and other AC concerns, I would agree that a generalized forum might be counterproductive, since the majority of the people visiting the facebook.com/commanderflight pages, might not be able to make a productive contribution anyway. We would want to see Morris, the Metzgers, Andy Downs, and Keith Gordon and many others become members of such a portal.
That is why I want to suggest, before we spend money on servers, bandwidth and developing sites, let's see if a secret facebook site might serve our purpose, which takes care of the domain ownership, DNS records and costs of ownership. I belong to a secret page on some other forum and only invited members can participate, see the postings, and can be expelled for misbehavior and other counterproductive issues. It just prevents having another userid and password floating around for most folks.
If TCFG would concur, I'll donate the www.aerocommander.com domain to whomever whishes to pursue the goal of a portal in which such a forum would be established.
Just my take on things.
Thanks for the feedback.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:58 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Nico,
I also agree with Adam in that I absolutely hate Facebook. The problem is that it's simply a gossip center where people go to talk and post pictures and videos. It's not subject specific and trying to follow conversations or search for specific information is impossible. I would like to see a forum that is specific to our common interests and that we can control better.
As I mentioned, I've already created a forum at twincommandergroup.com and created a few sections for conversations. There are a few things we all need to consider with a forum like this. 1) That more than one person be involved in the domain name so that when one of us passes on, the others can pickup the forum. One possible solution is that one of you has registered twincommanders.com. That could be pointed at my server and both domains would resolve to the same place for now but could be different later.
2) That the people involved have some sort of written agreement that if something were to happen to the person owning the server, that others can have it transferred to another server.
3) There are a couple options on the latter point, instead of me placing the forum on my own server I could just rent a server from one of the popular sites and we could place it there. You will get into disk size limits and other possible problems in that situation as well as costs involved that I'm more than happy to foot at the moment. I'm not rich but I do have the money to cover the server and operational costs. I just want somewhere that we can all gather and discuss what interests us about the Commanders family and not have to join an email list that I have a hard time keeping track of conversations or Facebook where I have to filter through everything.
I'm also very very sorry to hear about Jim. The accident would seem to be some sort of catastrophic failure based on the accident report so far. I can't believe an engine failure would cause something like that unless power was added after the failure. I just purchased a 680F that I haven't begun to fly so am very interested in what happened. I hope he recovers and gets back to flying soon.
Feel free to contact me at 770 490 7899 any time.
Glenn
On 9/25/15 8:45 PM, Nico hMail wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim Metzger was critically injured earlier this week when N222JS crashed on landing at Boise ID airport.
The Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise said there is no person by that name in the hospital. Weird.
I am trying to get hold of Sue to give us an update as we are very concerned and shocked at this accident. Keep Jim and Sue in your prayers.
Read all about it with pictures and video: https://www.facebook.com/COMMANDERFLIGHT
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Nico hMail
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 1:05 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: [matronics.com] Re: Re: How can we get a vital Commander forum?
The first time I posted this, it didn't get to the list…
Adam,
I still "own" the www.aerocommander.com domain, which is forwarded to www.twincommander.org where TCFG's web page is located. I put "own" in quotes because it really is the property of TCFG, which I just put on my ICANN register to manage the domain's DNS entries.
I also run/own the www.facebook.com/commanderflight facebook page. It is reasonably active, has more than 1,000 likes and the fans are from all over the globe. The best "reach" any posting had is the helicopter crash after an aerobatic maneuver, which stands at 89,000 and climbing by the thousands every day. The average is about 200-300 per posting. The facebook page accommodates posts from aviation in general but Aero Commanders in particular. Many of the articles, brochures, and other technical data were uploaded from the original CD's sent to me years ago by (I cannot recall) and are visible on the facebook page. There are tons of stuff there. The Metzger friends will be able to explain more about these resources as they have been intimately involved in shaping what these sites have become, not discounting others' contributions over the years. You will notice a distinct presence of turbines and piston Commanders there.
If it can be used, I'll transfer it wherever it can be used productively. The burden of the annual cost of renewal will have to follow the domain, too. I kept it up for a generation and it is not really used in its current form.
If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know.
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 7:08 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: [matronics.com] Re: Re: How can we get a vital Commander forum?
So I'm a bit confused:
1) There is already a site at http://www.flightlevelsonline.com/phpBB/ that seems dedicated to commanders but no one seems to use it. I posted something there before finding this email list that to this day still has not been responded to. Why?
2) I have created a new forum at twincommandersgroup.com and plan to leave it up as long as you guys want to use it but I guess the question is, why does no one use the other one? Is this one going to get ignored as badly as it and why don't we all just move over there and stop using this email list?
The forum can be set to send emails when new posts are made and it keeps all of the posts organized so people can go back and search old topics.
Is anyone interested in using my forum, the other forum or is everyone stuck on the email list?
Thanks,
Glenn
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Eric Williams <williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com (williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: Eric Williams <williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com (williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com)>
Aerocommanders.com and twincommanders.com sound good to me.
===========
br> ander-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
012345678 |
90
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glennh(at)GMAIL.COM
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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So my 2 cents:
First off I'm not that concerned with why people use Facebook nor do I want to argue its merits. I'm only concerned with being able to get in touch with like minded people about my Twin Commander. So to me, the question comes down to whether we want to post things to a blog of sorts or a forum. To understand the difference you'd only have to go to facebook and try to find a conversation that got started 2 months ago that you were participating in or going to a forum and doing the same.
The forums are threaded for a reason and they keep track of an entire conversation in one easy to follow link. A blog is nothing more than a bunch of people posting comments about this that or the other and there is no easy way to search through history or to find a specific topic you might be interested in, and post a comment.
I'm also not interested in how many followers anyone has on Facebook as those people don't fly and probably never have flown a Twin Commander. I'm only interested in the couple hundred people that are flying the planes today that can help me and that I might be able to help.
I'm not saying having a Facebook page with lots of people watching videos isn't a good thing, it's just not what I'm interested in personally.Â
This email list doesn't work and is too hard to keep track of conversations. It's also possible someone hits reply to a person instead of the group and the entire conversation goes offline for a bit then pops back in later with half the conversation missing.
so there we are: 
GlennÂ
On 9/27/15 9:30 PM, Nico hMail wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I don't disagree with you, guys.
Â
I use Facebook for several reasons, such as personal, business, political, religious and aviation.
Â
Personal: I have hooked up with family and friends whom I have had no possible chance of ever meeting again. Only that is cause for me to keep Facebook alive.
Â
Business: I spent a sizable amount of sweat and tears trying to keep my customer service with my customers on an almost-instant-response basis. We are looking at testing a "secret" site on Facebook, which is what I think we may consider for an Aero Commander forum, which is limited to subscribers only.
Â
Political: I believe that the world's liberty-loving people are under assault and I am doing my best to educate people to stand with me against the coming overthrow of democratic institutions and return the Occident to totalitarianism.
Â
Religious: besides the fact that I am a practicing Christian (a faulty one to boot) I have been teaching the Christian doctrine for a generation or so and Facebook turned out to be reaching more truth-seekers than with any other forum that I have ever used. Education in good moral values which sustain liberty, peace and prosperity only counts in quality if quantity gets to see it.
Â
I mention aviation last, because that is what this email is about. I cannot agree more with the Aero Commander sympathies expressed here. I owned a straight-500 and will always cherish the about 1,000 hours I put on her. However, aviation and nature in general is a fascinating matter to me, which is why I broadened the scope of my Facebook page on Aero Commanders. The helicopter flop and breakup into the ocean after an aerobatic maneuver gone bad, for example, reached almost 90,000 people!
Â
For an exchange of ideas, parts, and other AC concerns, I would agree that a generalized forum might be counterproductive, since the majority of the people visiting the facebook.com/commanderflight pages, might not be able to make a productive contribution anyway. We would want to see Morris, the Metzgers, Andy Downs, and Keith Gordon and many others become members of such a portal.
Â
That is why I want to suggest, before we spend money on servers, bandwidth and developing sites, let's see if a secret facebook site might serve our purpose, which takes care of the domain ownership, DNS records and costs of ownership. I belong to a secret page on some other forum and only invited members can participate, see the postings, and can be expelled for misbehavior and other counterproductive issues. It just prevents having another userid and password floating around for most folks.
Â
If TCFG would concur, I'll donate the www.aerocommander.com domain to whomever whishes to pursue the goal of a portal in which such a forum would be established.
Â
Just my take on things.
Â
Thanks for the feedback.
Â
Nico
Â
Â
Â
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:58 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Â
Nico,
I also agree with Adam in that I absolutely hate Facebook. The problem is that it's simply a gossip center where people go to talk and post pictures and videos. It's not subject specific and trying to follow conversations or search for specific information is impossible. I would like to see a forum that is specific to our common interests and that we can control better.
As I mentioned, I've already created a forum at twincommandergroup.com and created a few sections for conversations. There are a few things we all need to consider with a forum like this. 1) That more than one person be involved in the domain name so that when one of us passes on, the others can pickup the forum. One possible solution is that one of you has registered twincommanders.com. That could be pointed at my server and both domains would resolve to the same place for now but could be different later.Â
2) That the people involved have some sort of written agreement that if something were to happen to the person owning the server, that others can have it transferred to another server.
3) There are a couple options on the latter point, instead of me placing the forum on my own server I could just rent a server from one of the popular sites and we could place it there. You will get into disk size limits and other possible problems in that situation as well as costs involved that I'm more than happy to foot at the moment. I'm not rich but I do have the money to cover the server and operational costs. I just want somewhere that we can all gather and discuss what interests us about the Commanders family and not have to join an email list that I have a hard time keeping track of conversations or Facebook where I have to filter through everything.
I'm also very very sorry to hear about Jim. The accident would seem to be some sort of catastrophic failure based on the accident report so far. I can't believe an engine failure would cause something like that unless power was added after the failure. I just purchased a 680F that I haven't begun to fly so am very interested in what happened. I hope he recovers and gets back to flying soon.
Feel free to contact me at 770 490 7899 any time.
Glenn
On 9/25/15 8:45 PM, Nico hMail wrote:
| Quote: |
Jim Metzger was critically injured earlier this week when N222JS crashed on landing at Boise ID airport.
Â
The Saint Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise said there is no person by that name in the hospital. Weird.
Â
I am trying to get hold of Sue to give us an update as we are very concerned and shocked at this accident. Keep Jim and Sue in your prayers.
Â
Read all about it with pictures and video:Â https://www.facebook.com/COMMANDERFLIGHT
Â
Nico
Â
Â
Â
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Nico hMail
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 1:05 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: [matronics.com] Re: Re: How can we get a vital Commander forum?
Â
The first time I posted this, it didn't get to the list…
Â
Adam,
Â
I still "own" the www.aerocommander.com domain, which is forwarded to www.twincommander.org where TCFG's web page is located. I put "own" in quotes because it really is the property of TCFG, which I just put on my ICANN register to manage the domain's DNS entries.
Â
I also run/own the www.facebook.com/commanderflight facebook page. It is reasonably active, has more than 1,000 likes and the fans are from all over the globe. The best "reach" any posting had is the helicopter crash after an aerobatic maneuver, which stands at 89,000 and climbing by the thousands every day. The average is about 200-300 per posting. The facebook page accommodates posts from aviation in general but Aero Commanders in particular. Many of the articles, brochures, and other technical data were uploaded from the original CD's sent to me years ago by (I cannot recall) and are visible on the facebook page. There are tons of stuff there. The Metzger friends will be able to explain more about these resources as they have been intimately involved in shaping what these sites have become, not discounting others' contributions over the years. You will notice a distinct presence of turbines and piston Commanders there.
Â
If it can be used, I'll transfer it wherever it can be used productively. The burden of the annual cost of renewal will have to follow the domain, too. I kept it up for a generation and it is not really used in its current form.
Â
If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know.
Â
Thanks
Â
Nico
Â
Â
Â
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 7:08 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: [matronics.com] Re: Re: How can we get a vital Commander forum?
Â
So I'm a bit confused:
1) There is already a site at http://www.flightlevelsonline.com/phpBB/ that seems dedicated to commanders but no one seems to use it. I posted something there before finding this email list that to this day still has not been responded to. Why?
2) I have created a new forum at twincommandersgroup.com and plan to leave it up as long as you guys want to use it but I guess the question is, why does no one use the other one? Is this one going to get ignored as badly as it and why don't we all just move over there and stop using this email list?
The forum can be set to send emails when new posts are made and it keeps all of the posts organized so people can go back and search old topics.
Is anyone interested in using my forum, the other forum or is everyone stuck on the email list?
Thanks,
Glenn
Â
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:55 PM, Eric Williams <williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com (williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: Eric Williams <williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com (williams.ericlofton(at)gmail.com)>
Aerocommanders.com and twincommanders.com sound good to me.
> On Sep 24, 2015, at 19:35, stratobee <[url=mailto:adam(at)adamfrisch.com]adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)[/url]> wrote:
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
>
> Was looking at domains for it. Www.twincommanders.com is available, but it kind of suggest turbines are not welcome. Www.aerocommanders.com is available, and so is aerocommanderforum.com, but I'm not sure that was the correct manufacturing name for the models made under Rockwell and Gulfstream. Again, don't want to make anyone feel excluded.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --------
> Adam
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447422#447422
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
===========
br> ander-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
Â
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Â
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cloudcraft(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:12 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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| Quote: | I'm not saying having a Facebook page with lots of people watching videos isn't a good thing, it's just not what I'm interested in personally.
This email list doesn't work and is too hard to keep track of conversations. It's also possible someone hits reply to a person instead of the group and the entire conversation goes offline for a bit then pops back in later with half the conversation missing.
so there we are: |
And that's where I am, too.
Keith S Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Metroplex Co-Lead, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
--
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n55bz(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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I am in agreement with Keith and Glen.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Oct 2, 2015, at 13:12, "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com> wrote:
[quote]
I'm not saying having a Facebook page with lots of people watching videos isn't a good thing, it's just not what I'm interested in personally.
This email list doesn't work and is too hard to keep track of conversations. It's also possible someone hits reply to a person instead of the group and the entire conversation goes offline for a bit then pops back in later with half the conversation missing.
so there we are:
And that's where I am, too.
Keith S Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Metroplex Co-Lead, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
--
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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nico(at)nicsysco.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:03 pm Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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So am I.
I just capitulated to some verbal diarrhea about Facebook, not necessarily singing its praises.
The email list was working when it was the only practical medium.  There are so many more practical solutions out there today, it seems wise to use them. The domain aerocommander.com is available if it is needed. I am willing to promote such a closed group on my facebook page, which has hundreds of Commander pilots from all over the world who would certainly consider joining.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Boelte
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 11:27 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
I am in agreement with Keith and Glen.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Oct 2, 2015, at 13:12, "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft(at)aol.com (cloudcraft(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]
| Quote: |
I'm not saying having a Facebook page with lots of people watching videos isn't a good thing, it's just not what I'm interested in personally.
This email list doesn't work and is too hard to keep track of conversations. It's also possible someone hits reply to a person instead of the group and the entire conversation goes offline for a bit then pops back in later with half the conversation missing.
so there we are: |
And that's where I am, too.
Keith S Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
KHND RNAV Lead
FAASTeam, Las Vegas
NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman
Las Vegas Metroplex Co-Lead, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
--
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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stratobee
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:47 am Post subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
| | - The Matronics Commander-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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glennh(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:52 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issuesÂ
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <[url=javascript:;]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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glennh(at)GMAIL.COM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:57 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issuesÂ
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','adam(at)adamfrisch.com');]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
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|
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
|
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
[quote][b]
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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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|
Has anyone got information on how Jim Metzger is doing..?? From the photos, it looks like the plane is a total loss.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F/N6253X
[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01D0FDCD.65AACDC0[/img]
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CAÂ 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:57 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issues
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'adam(at)adamfrisch.com\');]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
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br> ander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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wingflyer1(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
|
|
Randy could you send the photo's of Jim's plane to me . I missed them if they were posted here . Also I would like to know how Jim is doing . Thanks Gil
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:19 PM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
[quote]v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Has anyone got information on how Jim Metzger is doing..?? From the photos, it looks like the plane is a total loss.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F/N6253X
<image001.gif>
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:57 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issues
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'adam(at)adamfrisch.com\');]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
===========
br> ander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
01234567
[b]
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aero560e(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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Randy,
Jim suffered critical injuries and yes, the airframe was totalled -the good news is that he will (after two weeks), be discharged from the ICU today.
From another forum:
Day 9 of JimBob's Road to Recovery...........busy day today with a steady parade of doctors and therapists. He's done well without the ventilator and has been able to hold down all the water he is drinking plus a small bowl of hello. Based on his progress he will be moved out of ICU this evening. Will be nice to be away from all of the alarms and activity, but a little scary to go to a reduced nurse:patient ratio. Started physical therapy and had him sitting (with lots of help) for 10 minutes. Took a lot out of him, but he is a trooper. Now we wait for the next surgeries. If I don't post every day from here on out its because nothing has changed. Prayers still needed for pain management, physical therapy and the next surgeries.
Cheers
Russell
On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 3:49 AM, Randy Dettmer, AIA <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone got information on how Jim Metzger is doing..?? From the photos, it looks like the plane is a total loss.
Â
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F/N6253X
Â
[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01D0FDCD.65AACDC0[/img]
Â
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CAÂ 93405
[url=tel:805%20541%204864]805 541 4864[/url] / fax [url=tel:805%20541%204865]805 541 4865[/url]
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
Â
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:57 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Â
Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
Â
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issuesÂ
Â
Â
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
===========
br> ander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
     -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
Â
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Â
Â
--
--glenn hancock
Â
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Â
 01234567
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aero560e(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:13 pm Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
|
|
G'day Adam,
My apologies for not having made contact earlier.
The Twin Commander Flight Group (TCFG) website at www.twincommander.org was developed by Barry Colman (Aero Commander historian) and myself (with help from Gabe Fernandez) to provide a definitive and detailed knowledge base for current owners, prospective owners and otherwise interested persons.Â
The website was 'gifted' to James (Jimbob) and Sue Metzger to maintain on behalf of the TCFG at the 2011 Flyin at Carson City. The website URL www.twincommander.org is owned by Jim & Sue, and passwords to 'Member's Only section were issued to financial members of the Group.Â
At the time it was considered that 'financial membership' of the Group be a reasonable incentive to facilitate access to the significant repository of resources and technical information which had been gathered (at some financial costs).
Over the years since, the website has been 'tweaked' by Sue, but in recent times this has not been possible.
There is considerable scope to further develop some areas of the website.
The email forum associated with the TCFG (Twin Commander Flight Group) was established back in 2001 and over the years provided an exceptional forum for technical discussions on a wide range of AD/SBs and hosted detailed discussions on most piston Models. The TCFG website provided an immediate link to this forum.
It is fair to say that the email medium has waned in its effectiveness over the past five years, and there is definitely 'connection' issues with several TCFG members and the Matronics mainframe. Some members have been unable to 'broadcast' to the forum, with these problems continuing despite some intervention by Matronics.
It is fair to say that in the past, discussions focussed on turbine Models have been limited, probably mainly due to the TCFG not having had many turbine owner members.
The TCAC (Twin Commander Aircraft Corporation) sponsored a rejuvenated forum for turbine owners (several years ago) and certainly hosted early turbine Model discussions - I am unsure of its current status.
Some years ago, Nicu developed the Aero Commander Facebook forum and much of the 'social' discussion within the TCFG has subsequently (and popularly) migrated to this forum.Â
The past two weeks have been tumultuous for JImbob and Sue, but while at the hospital Sue & I found time to discuss a 'new' email forum possibility and we would be very supportive of any new initiative that yourself or yourself and Glen were able to produce on behalf of the Group.
We would simply ask that you find a way to link the website (www.twincommander.org) with the new email forum to facilitate optimum future connectivity.
Cheers
Russell
Russell Legg
VH-CAU
Model 560E s/n 726
On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 1:17 AM, stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
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[b]
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glennh(at)GMAIL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:49 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
|
|
Russell,
It would be nice if the current Forum link on twincommander.org pointed to twincommandergroup.com to allow people quick access to the forum no matter which site we enter from. I've added a link to the top of the forum to get back to twincommander.org and listed it as the parent site. We can tweak this anyway you guys want as my end goal is to give us a more organized way to communicate. I would like to maintain control over the site at least in the beginning since I do this for a living and can get things done a lot faster than most. After its up and running I'm perfectly fine with transferring ownership to someone else or giving access to others that want it.
I am also taking your updates and posting them onto the forum. If that is not ok, let me know and I'll remove them. I have had a few people call me for updates because they didn't have time to go back through emails trying to figure out what was going on. So figured it would be the best way to deal with it.
In the goal of getting the forum going I'm also posting a few others posts over there and giving them credit for them.
Thanks,
Glenn
On 10/3/15 11:13 PM, Russell Legg wrote:
[quote] G'day Adam,
My apologies for not having made contact earlier.
The Twin Commander Flight Group (TCFG) website at www.twincommander.org was developed by Barry Colman (Aero Commander historian) and myself (with help from Gabe Fernandez) to provide a definitive and detailed knowledge base for current owners, prospective owners and otherwise interested persons.Â
The website was 'gifted' to James (Jimbob) and Sue Metzger to maintain on behalf of the TCFG at the 2011 Flyin at Carson City. The website URL www.twincommander.org is owned by Jim & Sue, and passwords to 'Member's Only section were issued to financial members of the Group.Â
At the time it was considered that 'financial membership' of the Group be a reasonable incentive to facilitate access to the significant repository of resources and technical information which had been gathered (at some financial costs).
Over the years since, the website has been 'tweaked' by Sue, but in recent times this has not been possible.
There is considerable scope to further develop some areas of the website.
The email forum associated with the TCFG (Twin Commander Flight Group) was established back in 2001 and over the years provided an exceptional forum for technical discussions on a wide range of AD/SBs and hosted detailed discussions on most piston Models. The TCFG website provided an immediate link to this forum.
It is fair to say that the email medium has waned in its effectiveness over the past five years, and there is definitely 'connection' issues with several TCFG members and the Matronics mainframe. Some members have been unable to 'broadcast' to the forum, with these problems continuing despite some intervention by Matronics.
It is fair to say that in the past, discussions focussed on turbine Models have been limited, probably mainly due to the TCFG not having had many turbine owner members.
The TCAC (Twin Commander Aircraft Corporation) sponsored a rejuvenated forum for turbine owners (several years ago) and certainly hosted early turbine Model discussions - I am unsure of its current status.
Some years ago, Nicu developed the Aero Commander Facebook forum and much of the 'social' discussion within the TCFG has subsequently (and popularly) migrated to this forum.Â
The past two weeks have been tumultuous for JImbob and Sue, but while at the hospital Sue & I found time to discuss a 'new' email forum possibility and we would be very supportive of any new initiative that yourself or yourself and Glen were able to produce on behalf of the Group.
We would simply ask that you find a way to link the website (www.twincommander.org) with the new email forum to facilitate optimum future connectivity.
Cheers
Russell
Russell Legg
VH-CAU
Model 560E s/n 726
On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 1:17 AM, stratobee <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)> wrote:
[b]
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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:43 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
|
|
Hi Gil,
I do not have photos of Jim’s plane. I only saw the images included in the news article I found on the internet. Below is a message from Morris Kernick regarding Jim’s condition.
Randy
Randy: Last contact I had with them, Jim is improving. He is in intensive care after one of may surgeries he will need. His son sent me pictures, the airplane is destroyed, N numbers are still useable, the tail separated just forward of the dorsal fin, one engine gear box, & propeller broke off the engine, cockpit & fuselage is badly damaged to behind the pilot seat area, both outboard wing sections are bent up about 30 degrees. He is lucky to have survived. Morris
[img]cid:image001.gif(at)01D0FE78.54560AC0[/img]
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CAÂ 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gil Walker
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 4:46 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Randy could you send the photo's of Jim's plane to me . I missed them if they were posted here . Also I would like to know how Jim is doing . Thanks Gil
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:19 PM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone got information on how Jim Metzger is doing..?? From the photos, it looks like the plane is a total loss.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F/N6253X
<image001.gif>
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:57 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issues
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'adam(at)adamfrisch.com\');]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
===========
br> ander-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===========
FORUMS -
_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
--
--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
|
01234567890123
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stratobee
Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 159
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:17 am Post subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
|
|
Great Glenn!
Good initiative. And maybe even in the future we could get Twin Commander Inc to point their more or less dead forum this way, too. That way, we're all in the same place.
Going over to register now and I will announce it on BeechTalk as well, as there are a few lurkers over there.
Glenn, I would also enforce the registration to have to include the full name, just like on BeechTalk. That's why that forum has thrived and grown, when every other one has not. Not only do you then know who you're talking with, which on this email form you don't (I don't know who jfcox(at)pacbell.net is etc), but it becomes more polite and people will stand behind their information in a different ay then on an anonymous forum. There it always just reduces to mudslinging or politics eventually. I would also tightly monitor any threads that turn political - this is not the place for that.
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wingflyer1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS |
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Thank you. , lucky Guy. ! Thanks for the up date on Jim . Gil
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 4, 2015, at 9:43 AM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Hi Gil,
I do not have photos of Jim’s plane. I only saw the images included in the news article I found on the internet. Below is a message from Morris Kernick regarding Jim’s condition.
Randy
Randy: Last contact I had with them, Jim is improving. He is in intensive care after one of may surgeries he will need. His son sent me pictures, the airplane is destroyed, N numbers are still useable, the tail separated just forward of the dorsal fin, one engine gear box, & propeller broke off the engine, cockpit & fuselage is badly damaged to behind the pilot seat area, both outboard wing sections are bent up about 30 degrees. He is lucky to have survived. Morris
<image001.gif>
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gil Walker
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 4:46 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Commander-List: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Randy could you send the photo's of Jim's plane to me . I missed them if they were posted here . Also I would like to know how Jim is doing . Thanks Gil
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 3, 2015, at 1:19 PM, "Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net (rcdettmer(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Has anyone got information on how Jim Metzger is doing..?? From the photos, it looks like the plane is a total loss.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F/N6253X
<image001.gif>
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2015 9:57 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [matronics.com] Re: Jim Metzger and N222JS
Sorry. For now go to www.twincommandergroup.com
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, Glenn Hancock <glennh(at)gmail.com (glennh(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Let's point all our domains to my server and will get forum finished up tonight. Everyone can just go to www.twincommander.com and setup a login. Let me know if you have any issues
Glenn
On Saturday, October 3, 2015, stratobee <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,\'cvml\',\'adam(at)adamfrisch.com\');]adam(at)adamfrisch.com[/url]> wrote:
--> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" <adam(at)adamfrisch.com (adam(at)adamfrisch.com)>
So let's do it. Set up a proper forum. Who wants to take the lead? I can do it, but perhaps it would be easier if it was the one who already owns the best suitable domain name? I did register www.twincommanders.com the other day.
Best,
A.
--------
Adam
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447615#447615
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You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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--glenn hancock
You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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