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AA5B vs. AG5B

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cannuck

Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 14
Location: SK Canada

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.



I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.



Also, if slower as claimed, how much?  Also, what remedies?

_________________
AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

ken(at)wejoysing.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

AG5B Owner



Trying to figure out how fast a Tiger cruises is impossible. Â  You have to understand that folks tell less than the truth about their cruise speed figures. Â  Some folks boast really high cruise speeds but then later you find out that they are flying above red line RPM or have significantly modified the airplane. Â  Prop pitch also makes a difference, do you want a climb or a cruise. Â  Do you have the port and flowed engine, do you have the fancy muffler system... Â  Â the list goes on and on.

I have given up on the subject. Â Â 

My AG5B will cruise at 135 knots. Â  Â I have the muffler, the port and flowed but a climb prop. Â  I suppose I could get a couple more or 3 knots by going to a cruise prop. Â Â 

On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 8:55 PM, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net (pmdolan(at)sasktel.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "cannuck" <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net (pmdolan(at)sasktel.net)>

 

 At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?Â  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.

 

 I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.

 

 Also, if slower as claimed, how much?Â  Also, what remedies?

 

 --------

 AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447679#447679

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -

 Grumman-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	




-- 

Ken Kirk



 

  [quote][b]

TBranton(at)alvincollege.
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:16 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

I cannot tell you the reason the AG5B is slower, just the real world results.  Before we bought the 2003 AG5B we had a 77 Tiger.  It was indeed a faster aircraft.  The 2003 will cruise at about 125 knots all day long, certainly slower than the 77 but not by any significant amount.  For us, and your mileage may vary, the advantages of the newer aircraft with state of the art avionics (at least state of the art for ten years ago) and modern systems more than makes up for a slower speed.



Tom and Kathy

N951TE



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tab® S

-------- Original message --------

From: cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net>

Date: 10/04/2015 7:55 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: AA5B vs. AG5B






At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.



I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.



Also, if slower as claimed, how much?  Also, what remedies?



--------

AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447679#447679

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

I've owned a couple '76 and a '02 Tiger. I don't think the AG is any slower. AG's airspeed is lndicated in knots... Surely not but Could it be the number is smaller because it's not in mph?



Other than that the AG's are most likely heavier and that could make them slower



On Oct 4, 2015, at 7:55 PM, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net> wrote:






At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.



I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.



Also, if slower as claimed, how much?  Also, what remedies?



--------

AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447679#447679

BARRY CHECK 6

Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:27 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

When you say book values, are you refering to AA



On Sunday, October 4, 2015, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net (pmdolan(at)sasktel.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "cannuck" <[url=javascript:;]pmdolan(at)sasktel.net[/url]>

 

 At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?Â  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.

 

 I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.

 

 Also, if slower as claimed, how much?Â  Also, what remedies?

 

 --------

 AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447679#447679

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 -

 Grumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

 Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

  [quote][b]

mikebabin(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:23 am Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

My data points:



I have a 2004 AG5B, Powerflow exhaust, Ly-Con port&polish, flow-matched, 63â€ prop, and I get 128 KTAS at full throttle and about 2650 RPM at 7500' pressure altitude.  Consistently.

My previous 1976 AA5A, converted to a Tiger with a factory new engine and bigger spar, with the Powerflow exhaust, no P&P, same prop, same altitude, and same loading/cg, could exceed redline at WOT, and would yield 135 KTAS.  Consistently.



The most common theory Iâ€™ve heard to explain the lower speeds in the Tiger LLC aircraft is the design of the induction system, specifically that the air intake is in a relatively low pressure area of the cowl.  Iâ€™m not an engineer, so I canâ€™t verify that, but the inflight performance data is accurate. 



-Mike



   	  Quote: 	
		  On Oct 4, 2015, at 20:13 43, Ken Kirk <ken(at)wejoysing.com (ken(at)wejoysing.com)> wrote:

AG5B Owner

Trying to figure out how fast a Tiger cruises is impossible.   You have to understand that folks tell less than the truth about their cruise speed figures.   Some folks boast really high cruise speeds but then later you find out that they are flying above red line RPM or have significantly modified the airplane.   Prop pitch also makes a difference, do you want a climb or a cruise.   Do you have the port and flowed engine, do you have the fancy muffler system...    the list goes on and on.



I have given up on the subject.   



My AG5B will cruise at 135 knots.    I have the muffler, the port and flowed but a climb prop.   I suppose I could get a couple more or 3 knots by going to a cruise prop.   



On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 8:55 PM, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net (pmdolan(at)sasktel.net)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "cannuck" <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net (pmdolan(at)sasktel.net)>At the risk of opening a can of worms, can anyone give me the real reasons why AG5B aircraft are slower than AA5B?  With my '77 Tiger, I could easily beat book values, but many tell me the new airplanes just won't do that.I am hopefully going to start shopping for another bird soon, and really wanted the extra panel space and 24VDC electrics of the newer airframe, but NOT if it is at the expense of reason #1 to own a Tiger.Also, if slower as claimed, how much?  Also, what remedies?--------AA1 and AA5B former (future?) ownerRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447679#447679===========-Grumman-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List===========FORUMS -eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com===========b Site -          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=========== 	




-- Ken Kirk



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" class="">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List

class="">http://forums.matronics.com

class="">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	




 [quote][b]

cannuck

Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 14
Location: SK Canada

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:19 am Post subject: Re: AA5B vs. AG5B

Thanks for the replies thus far.



I do have to confess, my AA was tweeked quite a bit (more-or-less within what one could get away with 30 years ago in our heavily regulated environment).   I had removed the exhaust baffles and cabin steps, sealed most non-moving gaps, rigged a bit of reflex in both ailerons and flaps (usually flew light so benefited from shift in center of pressure by less induced drag from wing and trim drag from elevator.)  So, my frame of reference is not accurate (and most had to be reversed for inspections).  



What I DID notice was that I could run and hide from "faster" brand P&C retractables with ease.  From this, I have come to prefer side-by-side comparisons as the most accurate indicator of differences - real or imagined.



I noticed that the AG actually shows 2 knots higher cruise by book, but EVERYONE I have ever spoken with notes that the AGs are slower.   In the boom years, genav manufacturers used the book values much like a US car manufacturer - making ridiculous and unsupportable claims for power/speed.



In my experience, increasing engine power makes for very small increases in speed, mostly can be seen in climb performance.  The big differences (and here I mean in one knot chunks) usually comes from fixing an aerodynamic problem that someone didn't know was there.

_________________
AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:03 am Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

My AA5B trued at 160 knots before I began major restoration.

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Oct 6, 2015, at 6:19 AM, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks for the replies thus far.

 

 I do have to confess, my AA was tweeked quite a bit (more-or-less within what one could get away with 30 years ago in our heavily regulated environment).   I had removed the exhaust baffles and cabin steps, sealed most non-moving gaps, rigged a bit of reflex in both ailerons and flaps (usually flew light so benefited from shift in center of pressure by less induced drag from wing and trim drag from elevator.)  So, my frame of reference is not accurate (and most had to be reversed for inspections).  

 

 What I DID notice was that I could run and hide from "faster" brand P&C retractables with ease.  From this, I have come to prefer side-by-side comparisons as the most accurate indicator of differences - real or imagined.

 

 I noticed that the AG actually shows 2 knots higher cruise by book, but EVERYONE I have ever spoken with notes that the AGs are slower.   In the boom years, genav manufacturers used the book values much like a US car manufacturer - making ridiculous and unsupportable claims for power/speed.

 

 In my experience, increasing engine power makes for very small increases in speed, mostly can be seen in climb performance.  The big differences (and here I mean in one knot chunks) usually comes from fixing an aerodynamic problem that someone didn't know was there.

 

 --------

 AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=447720#447720

cannuck

Joined: 09 Mar 2013
Posts: 14
Location: SK Canada

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: AA5B vs. AG5B

Mike:



Sorry to be so slow to the response, but have been away on a critical contract out of country.



Your repsonse gives cause for more questions than answers (and I guess the exact reason I started this thread).   I completely understand the theory, but what amazes me is that with all of the extremely accurate digital instruments around, has anyone not simple read manifold pressure at the same WOT and density altitude????   That would give an instant and accurate answer to that question.



Secondly, now I would REALLY like to hear from someone with a late AG5B that has installed the Lopresti cowl with its NACA duct feeding the carb air box.

 	  mikebabin(at)AOL.COM wrote: 	
		  



The most common theory Iâ€™ve heard to explain the lower speeds in the Tiger LLC aircraft is the design of the induction system, specifically that the air intake is in a relatively low pressure area of the cowl.  Iâ€™m not an engineer, so I canâ€™t verify that, but the inflight performance data is accurate. 



-Mike

_________________
AA1 and AA5B former (future?) owner

Discover

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 429

Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:17 pm Post subject: AA5B vs. AG5B

At one point in time my AG5B had the induction set up to derive the incoming air from either the factory AG5B location on the bottom of the cowl or the factory AA5B location behind cylinder #3



This could be changed from one to the other while in flight. 

The difference in manifold pressure was 3/4 to 1" with the AA5B inlet having the higher pressure. 



Just FYI,

The LoPresti nose bowl advertisements say that the NACA side scoop provides lower inlet air temps. 

I put a temp sensor in front of the AA5B type inlet in my Tiger and found that the inlet temp is equal to the OAT at all times except when sitting on the ground in high OAT temps after idling for about ten minutes. Then the inlet temp was a little higher than OAT





Ned



On Oct 30, 2015, at 7:56 PM, cannuck <pmdolan(at)sasktel.net> wrote:






Mike:



Sorry to be so slow to the response, but have been away on a critical contract out of country.



Your repsonse gives cause for more questions than answers (and I guess the exact reason I started this thread).   I completely understand the theory, but what amazes me is that with all of the extremely accurate digital instruments around, has anyone not simple read manifold pressure at the same WOT and density altitude????   That would give an instant and accurate answer to that question.



Secondly, now I would REALLY like to hear from someone with a late AG5B that has installed the Lopresti cowl with its NACA duct feeding the carb air box

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