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Weak Starter

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JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.



I measured:



Battery 13.12 volts.

"On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

"On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to 

9.0 volts.

Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less.



All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I 

believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. Correct?



john

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

Is say high resistance in the starter contactor 

More than likely due to internal arcing. This causes corrosion and pitting. 



Slap a new contactor on there and I bet it fixes the issue. 



Afterwards, dissect the old contactor to see exactly what happens internally. 



Justin. 

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Dec 6, 2015, at 16:15, John Morgensen <john(at)morgensen.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.

 

 I measured:

 

 Battery 13.12 volts.

 "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

 "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to 9.0 volts.

 Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less.

 

 All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. Correct?

 

 john

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

On 12/6/2015 6:15 PM, John Morgensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <john(at)morgensen.com>



 My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.



 I measured:



 Battery 13.12 volts.

 "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

 "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 

 to 9.0 volts.

 Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or 

 less.



 All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I 

 believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. 

 Correct?



 john

12.25 volts with minimal load (contactor coil only) *might* be a little 
	


weak for a fully charged battery. The measurement doesn't really mean a 

lot if there's no load on the other side of the contactor. You could put 

a 100,000 ohm resistor in series & still measure full battery voltage on 

the other side of the resistor, as long as there's no load to ground. 

What's the measurement at the 'on' side of the master contactor while 

cranking? (Don't change test conditions.)



Another method of measurement when looking for bad joints/high 

resistance in a high current circuit:



1. Measure from the battery positive post (not the bolt or clamp) to the 

starter positive post while cranking. A voltage drop of greater than 

~1/2 volt means you have a high resistance somewhere between battery & 

starter.



2. Measure from the frame (ground) of the starter to the actual negative 

post on the battery (not the bolt or clamp) while cranking. That 

measurement should again be less than 1/2 volt. If not, you have high 

resistance in the ground circuit.



8.5-9 volts across the starter windings while under load really doesn't 

sound bad, as long as the rest of the circuit is 'right' and the battery 

is in good shape.



Charlie

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

On 12/6/2015 7:50 PM, Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 12/6/2015 6:15 PM, John Morgensen wrote:

> 

> <john(at)morgensen.com>

>

> My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.

>

> I measured:

>

> Battery 13.12 volts.

> "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

> "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 

> to 9.0 volts.

> Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or 

> less.

>

> All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. 

> I believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. 

> Correct?

>

> john

Edit: I missed the 1st line, battery 13.2 & load side of contactor at 

12.25. The contacts in the master contactor have really high resistance 

to see that much drop.

 	  Quote: 	
		   12.25 volts with minimal load (contactor coil only) *might* be a 

 little weak for a fully charged battery. The measurement doesn't 

 really mean a lot if there's no load on the other side of the 

 contactor. You could put a 100,000 ohm resistor in series & still 

 measure full battery voltage on the other side of the resistor, as 

 long as there's no load to ground. What's the measurement at the 'on' 

 side of the master contactor while cranking? (Don't change test 

 conditions.)

 Another method of measurement when looking for bad joints/high 

 resistance in a high current circuit:

 1. Measure from the battery positive post (not the bolt or clamp) to 

 the starter positive post while cranking. A voltage drop of greater 

 than ~1/2 volt means you have a high resistance somewhere between 

 battery & starter.

 2. Measure from the frame (ground) of the starter to the actual 

 negative post on the battery (not the bolt or clamp) while cranking. 

 That measurement should again be less than 1/2 volt. If not, you have 

 high resistance in the ground circuit.

 8.5-9 volts across the starter windings while under load really 

 doesn't sound bad, as long as the rest of the circuit is 'right' and 

 the battery is in good shape.

 Charlie

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

You probably need to replace both starter relay and master relay. 

Download Skytec's troubleshooting chart and follow it carefully.



On 12/6/2015 5:15 PM, John Morgensen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <john(at)morgensen.com>



 My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.



 I measured:



 Battery 13.12 volts.

 "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

 "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 

 to 9.0 volts.

 Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or 

 less.



 All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I 

 believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. 

 Correct?



 john

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

wgreenley

Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 100
Location: Dowagiac, MI

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:05 am Post subject: Weak Starter

I agree, I had these same issues on my 172 and it was the master relay, the starter relay was fine. I replaced both as they were both of the same vintage. Starting problems gone.

Bill



--

JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:07 am Post subject: Weak Starter

Thanks for all of the replies.



Skytec's troubleshooting chart says that the starter needs to see 10+ 

volts. I will be replacing both relays.



john



On 12/6/2015 6:41 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <kellym(at)aviating.com>



 You probably need to replace both starter relay and master relay. 

 Download Skytec's troubleshooting chart and follow it carefully.



 On 12/6/2015 5:15 PM, John Morgensen wrote:

> 

> <john(at)morgensen.com>

>

> My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.

>

> I measured:

>

> Battery 13.12 volts.

> "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

> "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 

> to 9.0 volts.

> Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or 

> less.

>

> All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. 

> I believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. 

> Correct?

>

> john

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: Weak Starter

John,

A problem like you are seeing can also be caused by an "aged" main battery.

The battery V measures fine with no load, may also measure fine with just a 

buss current load, but, when it sees a "starter" type current load (200 - 

300 amps), it slumps badly.  Usually caused by a cell or two that are too 

aged to produce the amps needed.

Only answer is to install a new battery and keep it fresh by keeping a low 

current "maintainer" style charger on it during hangar periods.

David



____________________________________________________________

---

JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:22 am Post subject: Weak Starter

David,

     Be careful with "maintainer" style chargers and Odyssey PC680     batteries. Notice that the warranty can be voided:

     

     C. The warranty does not cover a Battery that is damaged or     destroyed as a result of one for more of the 

     following:

     • 

     Willful abuse, misuse, physical damage, neglect or if the top     decorative cover has been removed.

     • 

     Natural forces such as wind, lightning, hail; damage due to fire,     collision, explosion, vandalism, theft, 

     penetration or opening of the Battery case in any manner.

     • 

     Overcharging, undercharging, charging or installing in reverse     polarity, improper maintenance, allowing 

     the Battery to be deeply discharged via a parasitic load or     mishandling of the Battery such as but not 

     limited to using the terminals for lifting or carrying the Battery.       Trickle chargers that do not have a regulated 

     trickle charge voltage between 13.5V and 13.8V (no lower than       13.5V and no higher than 13.8V) will cause 

     early failure of the Battery. Use of such chargers with     the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty. For 

     applications where an alternator is present, the alternator must     deliver between 14.0V and 14.7V when 

     measured at the Battery’s terminals. Alternators that do not have a     regulated charge between 14.0V and 

     14.7V (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause     early failure of the Battery. Use of such 

     alternators with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty

     

     I thought I was doing the right thing by religiously using a quality     Battery Minder but it destroyed the battery. They use to publish a     list of unacceptable chargers but I can't find it on their web site     any more.

     

     john

     

     

     

     On 12/7/2015 10:11 AM, David Lloyd       wrote:

     

     [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David       Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> (skywagon(at)charter.net)       

       

       John,       

       A problem like you are seeing can also be caused by an "aged" main       battery.       

       The battery V measures fine with no load, may also measure fine       with just a buss current load, but, when it sees a "starter" type       current load (200 - 300 amps), it slumps badly.  Usually caused by       a cell or two that are too aged to produce the amps needed.       

       Only answer is to install a new battery and keep it fresh by       keeping a low current "maintainer" style charger on it during       hangar periods.       

       David       

       

       ____________________________________________________________       

       

       

       ---

_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:44 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

I would second the points made below in       John's post.  

       

       Over the past 9 years I've managed to abuse and slowly kill a       number of PC680s in a variety of ways.  Simply reading and       FOLLOWING the guidelines documented in their Owner's Manual,       including the fine print of the Warranty, will avoid ALL of the       problems I've experienced.

       

       Why didn't I?  Well, since I grew up charging batteries from early       60s electric tooth brushes that could barely handle a full set of       teeth, to gliders, boats, cars and 50 years of RC aircraft, I must       know what I'm doing. So I've taken the time to rediscover and       learn anew all that was already known about Odessy's AGM line of       batteries.  I'm almost done with my studies...

       

       Regarding trickle chargers, according to the Manual, "..there is       no need to trickle or float charge during winter months."  It       continues, "It can be stored for 2 years or more below 77F."  If       you insist, see Warranty notes reproduced below.  If you do have       some kind of parasitic load on the battery during storage (I had       that), get it fully charged (you must start there) , apply a       trickle charger that can produce the regulated voltage (I didn't),       then for good measure, fully charge it before using it.  Better,       just disconnect the load and save the cost of the trickle       charger.... or $150 lets you start the learning process from the       beginning again.

       

       Just to repeat, I've found the information in Odyssey's Owner's       Manual to be complete and accurate in every way.  The only thing       that upsets me is that they cost $150 a copy, but at least it       comes with a fresh battery.

       

       Bill "content to remain ignorant about Lithium technologies and to       simply enjoy their performance" Watson

       

       On 12/7/2015 2:21 PM, John Morgensen wrote:

     

     [quote]              David,

       Be careful with "maintainer" style chargers and Odyssey PC680       batteries. Notice that the warranty can be voided:

       

       C. The warranty does not cover a Battery that is damaged or       destroyed as a result of one for more of the 

       following:

       • 

       Willful abuse, misuse, physical damage, neglect or if the top       decorative cover has been removed.

       • 

       Natural forces such as wind, lightning, hail; damage due to fire,       collision, explosion, vandalism, theft, 

       penetration or opening of the Battery case in any manner.

       • 

       Overcharging, undercharging, charging or installing in reverse       polarity, improper maintenance, allowing 

       the Battery to be deeply discharged via a parasitic load or       mishandling of the Battery such as but not 

       limited to using the terminals for lifting or carrying the       Battery. Trickle chargers that do not have a regulated 

       trickle charge voltage between 13.5V and 13.8V (no lower         than 13.5V and no higher than 13.8V) will cause 

       early failure of the Battery. Use of such chargers       with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty. For 

       applications where an alternator is present, the alternator must       deliver between 14.0V and 14.7V when 

       measured at the Battery’s terminals. Alternators that do not have       a regulated charge between 14.0V and 

       14.7V (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause       early failure of the Battery. Use of such 

       alternators with the Battery will also void the Battery’s warranty

       

       I thought I was doing the right thing by religiously using a       quality Battery Minder but it destroyed the battery. They use to       publish a list of unacceptable chargers but I can't find it on       their web site any more.

       

       john

       

       

       

       On 12/7/2015 10:11 AM, David Lloyd         wrote:

       

       [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David         Lloyd" <skywagon(at)charter.net> (skywagon(at)charter.net)         

         

         John, 

         A problem like you are seeing can also be caused by an "aged"         main battery. 

         The battery V measures fine with no load, may also measure fine         with just a buss current load, but, when it sees a "starter"         type current load (200 - 300 amps), it slumps badly.  Usually         caused by a cell or two that are too aged to produce the amps         needed. 

         Only answer is to install a new battery and keep it fresh by         keeping a low current "maintainer" style charger on it during         hangar periods. 

         David 

         

         ____________________________________________________________ 

         

         

         ---

speedy11

Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 62
Location: Port Orange, FL

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

John,

 I had the same issue on my IO-390.  Skytec worked okay for five years then got slower and slower.  I did all of the same checks you are talking about.  Replaced the starter.  Problem solved.

 See if you can borrow a starter from someone and try it on your plane.

 Stan

 

  

     	  Quote: 	
		  My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.

  

  I measured:

  

  Battery 13.12 volts.

  "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

  "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to 

  9.0 volts.

  Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less.

  

  All this was done with a genuine Harbor Freight $4.00 digital meter. I 

  believe that this points to the starter contactor as the culprit. Correct?

  

  john

jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:11 pm Post subject: Weak Starter

Be advised, some if not all lycoming skytec starters have a contactor (solenoid) on the starter as well.



 



[quote] On Dec 8, 2015, at 16:59, speedy11(at)aol.com wrote:

 

 John,

 I had the same issue on my IO-390.  Skytec worked okay for five years then got slower and slower.  I did all of the same checks you are talking about.  Replaced the starter.  Problem solved.

 See if you can borrow a starter from someone and try it on your plane.

 Stan

 

 My Skytec starter barely turns over an IO320.

 

 I measured:

 

 Battery 13.12 volts.

 "On" side of master contactor to airframe ground 12.25 volts.

 "On" side of starter contactor to airframe ground while cranking 8.6 to 

 9.0 volts.

 Big wire on starter to airframe ground while cranking is 8.6 volts or less

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