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Aileron trim

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Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: Aileron trim

I have a slightly heavy right wing.  Probably engine torque but who knows.  I want to try aileron trim and wonder if it would be best to put the trim tab up on the right aileron or down on the left aileron; or does it really matter.



Any thoughts appreciated.

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject: Aileron trim

Rex, I started off thinking it to be six of one, half a dozen of another as far as a trim tab. Then I got to thinking about it some more. If you deflect an aileron down with a tab, you create lift to raise the wing but also drag to pull it backward (the origins of adverse yaw) so you'll have to add a little rudder to center the ball or yaw string. If you deflect the opposite side up you lose a little lift and a little drag which should level the wings and create less yaw. Or so it appears to me.Do you have any idea what is causing it. Doubtful it is caused by torque, at least no Kolb I've ever flown has had the tendency. Is it a new problem? Anything changed that might have caused it?I'm sorry I don't remember what you fly. With a Mark III you can use the flaps to trim out an imbalance.\

Good luck and Happy New Year

Rick Girard





On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 11:08 AM, Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I have a slightly heavy right wing.Â  Probably engine torque but who knows.Â  I want to try aileron trim and wonder if it would be best to put the trim tab up on the right aileron or down on the left aileron; or does it really matter.

 

 Any thoughts appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451661#451661

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron trim

If I were you, I would put something like this trim tab on the left wing aileron, with the tab down, to push the aileron up, hopefully to get the wings to trim out evenly and level up. 

If the wings then level up, but the ball is not in the center, then you would have to adjust it out with a trim tab on the rudder.

For planning purposes: attach your trim tabs in the most unobtrusive way possible, so that if you end up having to rearrange things, you have not painted yourself into a corner.

http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:19 am Post subject: Aileron trim

Rex,

 I had trouble with one wing with a tendency to drop on my Extra.. Finally  solved it by adjusting AOA of the wing. The Xtra has a choice of attachment  points, cant remember if it raised or lowered the leading or trailing edges. If  you have that facility try that first, it is simple to do. Go on to trim tabs  next. Good luck. Pat

    

  From: Rex Rodebush (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2016 5:11 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Kolb-List: Aileron trim

  



  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush"  <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com>



I have a slightly heavy right wing.   Probably engine torque but who knows.  I want to try aileron trim and  wonder if it would be best to put the trim tab up on the right aileron or down  on the left aileron; or does it really matter.



Any thoughts  appreciated.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451661#451661



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Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim

I find that my 2001 Mk III requires a little more or less left stick pressure depending on whether I'm flying solo or with a passenger. To adjust for this, I change the configuration of spacer washers in my left universal joint. It's been awhile, and I'm not at the hangar right now, but here goes- I have three washers, in the "U" joint. When I fly solo, I think I put two washers above and one below the wing connection, and when I fly with a passenger, I fly solo, I put two below and one above. I think that's right. The adjustment raises or lowers the trailing edge of the whole wing slightly and trims the roll nicely. Obviously, if I'm just flying occasionally with a passenger, I just suck it up and fly with the washers in the solo position, getting a little more exercise on my right arm. I also have a pretty substantial trim tab on my tail. In either case, I don't seem to have noticeable adverse yaw.

Dave Watkins

Pompano Beach

Mk III Classic

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim

 	  Watkinsdw wrote: 	
		  I find that my 2001 Mk III requires a little more or less left stick pressure depending on whether I'm flying solo or with a passenger. To adjust for this, I change the configuration of spacer washers in my left universal joint. It's been awhile, and I'm not at the hangar right now, but here goes- I have three washers, in the "U" joint. When I fly solo, I think I put two washers above and one below the wing connection, and when I fly with a passenger, I fly solo, I put two below and one above. I think that's right. The adjustment raises or lowers the trailing edge of the whole wing slightly and trims the roll nicely. Obviously, if I'm just flying occasionally with a passenger, I just suck it up and fly with the washers in the solo position, getting a little more exercise on my right arm. I also have a pretty substantial trim tab on my tail. In either case, I don't seem to have noticeable adverse yaw.

Dave Watkins

Pompano Beach

Mk III Classic 	




That seems like a lot of work compared to the 20 seconds it takes to reset an adjustable trim tab. 

For a more permanent adjustment on an airplane where the wings have a different angle of attack, Kolb makes and sells an offset U-joint bracket. I don't know what they charge for them, but I have one I don't need. Be glad to sell it for the cost of shipping. It is for a MKIII/FSII, don't know if it will fit the Xtra. PM me.

P1040910 (Medium).JPG

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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

Watkinsdw

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 138
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Aileron trim

Good looking solution, Richard. You would still need to pull the bolt and flip the u-joint, but not have to fiddle with the washers. Sounds like the Extra has an even simpler solution.

Thanks for the input. 

Dave

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron trim

Thanks to all who responded, on and off line.  I'm going to try a flap adjustment first and then aileron trim if the flap trim is not successful.  If that causes more problems I'll probably just live with it.  Solo the required stick pressure is just a few ounces by my estimation.  With a 220# passenger it is much more noticeable.  I will keep the washer/wing angle as a possibility for the future.  I'll post the results when known.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:34 pm Post subject: Aileron trim

Rex/Gang:



I use a small piece of bungee cord from the aileron torque tube to the

control stick.   Each end is looped around the tube and secured with a small

1/4" wide hose clamp.



Will work on dual controls and single center stick.  On a single center

stick find a place to secure the stationary end of the bungee.



Adjustment is infinite.  When the moving end on the stick is at its lowest

point there is neutral forced trim.  Moving the loop up the stick increases

trim force.



I have used this system on my MKIII for 23 years.  In fact, I recently

changed out the original piece of bungee.  My bungee looks like it may be

1/2" in diameter.



This is a simple way to get the job done effectively without drill holes,

popping rivets, hanging sheet metal and Lexan on an aileron, changing out

wing mounts, etc.



Be glad to post photos next time I go over to Gantt International Airport,

when the temps get above freezing.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





--

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: Aileron trim

I like John's method. I've never owned/flown a Kolb, but the 'standard' 

aileron trim for the 2 seat RV-x's is very similar to John's method. The 

RV's use a lever that has its pivot on the control stick, and springs 

from the lever to convenient solid points on either side of the stick. 

moving the lever increases tension on one spring; decreases it on the 

other. This supplies a bias to the stick just like what John is 

describing. Very effective on the RVs, it's cheap, and weighs almost 

nothing. In flight, you can't tell it's there, and RV's have pretty 

light controls.



Charlie



On 1/5/2016 7:34 PM, John Hauck wrote:

[quote] 



 Rex/Gang:



 I use a small piece of bungee cord from the aileron torque tube to the

 control stick.   Each end is looped around the tube and secured with a small

 1/4" wide hose clamp.



 Will work on dual controls and single center stick.  On a single center

 stick find a place to secure the stationary end of the bungee.



 Adjustment is infinite.  When the moving end on the stick is at its lowest

 point there is neutral forced trim.  Moving the loop up the stick increases

 trim force.



 I have used this system on my MKIII for 23 years.  In fact, I recently

 changed out the original piece of bungee.  My bungee looks like it may be

 1/2" in diameter.



 This is a simple way to get the job done effectively without drill holes,

 popping rivets, hanging sheet metal and Lexan on an aileron, changing out

 wing mounts, etc.



 Be glad to post photos next time I go over to Gantt International Airport,

 when the temps get above freezing.  



 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama





 --

patrickjladd(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:50 am Post subject: Aileron trim

I had quite forgotten Johns patent elastic trim. John described it on the  list years ago and I fitted it straight away. Foolproof, maintenance free,  cheap, easily inspected. What could be better? I fitted mine to my Xtra after I  had balanced the wings with the AOA adjustment. The infinitely adjustable bungee  took care of the fine tuning by sliding the loop around the stick higher or  lower,  and the fact that I almost always flew alone and my weight was  therefore always left of the centreline. I did not use  bungee cord but a  complete bungee with hooks from a supermarket. I think that I hooked one end of  the bungee to the underside of the passenger seat somewhere, round the stick  twice and back under the seat.  Of course this does not trim the plane  aerodynamically, merely takes the weight off the stick.

 Well worth doing nevertheless.

 Pat 

    

  From: John Hauck (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com) 

 Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 1:37 AM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim

  



  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck"  <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>



Rex/Gang:



I use a small piece of  bungee cord from the aileron torque tube to the

control stick.    Each end is looped around the tube and secured with a small

1/4" wide hose  clamp.



Will work on dual controls and single center stick.  On a  single center

stick find a place to secure the stationary end of the  bungee.



Adjustment is infinite.  When the moving end on the stick is  at its lowest

point there is neutral forced trim.  Moving the loop up  the stick increases

trim force.



I have used this system on my MKIII  for 23 years.  In fact, I recently

changed out the original piece of  bungee.  My bungee looks like it may be

1/2" in diameter.



This is  a simple way to get the job done effectively without drill holes,

popping  rivets, hanging sheet metal and Lexan on an aileron, changing out

wing  mounts, etc.



Be glad to post photos next time I go over to Gantt  International Airport,

when the temps get above freezing.   



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama





-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush

Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 4:58 PM

To:  kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Aileron trim



-->  Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush"  <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com>



Thanks to all who responded, on and off  line.  I'm going to try a flap

adjustment first and then aileron trim if  the flap trim is not successful.

If that causes more problems I'll probably  just live with it.  Solo the

required stick pressure is just a few  ounces by my estimation.  With a 220#

passenger it is much more  noticeable.  I will keep the washer/wing angle as

a possibility for the  future.  I'll post the results when known.





Read this  topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451779#451779





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_-=

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_-=

_-============================================================

_-=           - The Kolb-List Email Forum -

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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:46 am Post subject: Aileron trim

Date: 	Jan 03, 2016

From: Richard Girard

---------------------------

< Doubtful it is caused by torque, at least no Kolb I've ever flown

has had the tendency. >

-------------------------

If you have an engine on an aircraft there will always be a torque

component in play as long as the engine is operating under load.

For example,  a Rotax 912 81 hp engine generates 75.9 ft-lb torque at

4800 rpm.  Add a 2.43:1 gear box and the torque at the propeller goes

to 184 ft-lb.  This means it will take about an 18 lb vertical force

at the wing tip to keep the wings level.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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