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riveteddragon(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: Battery Cable |
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Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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flying-nut(at)cfl.rr.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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I ran a separate #2 ground wire all the way to (and through) the
firewall and on to the ground straps that go around the engine isolators.
This gave me a good, solid ground to the engine for starting and also
gives me a good ground for the instrument panel. I thought long and
hard about the additional weight and decided it was better to add the
weight than be stranded trying to start with a weak battery.
I'm not flying yet so I can's say that I made the correct decision.
You're correct on the ground loops.
Linn
On 1/10/2016 2:07 PM, Steven DeFord wrote:
| Quote: | Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead
needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire
up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems
like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground
wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially
noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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Follow Van's plans for a local grounding point at the front of the battery tray. There is NO value to running a heavy ground cable to the firewall from the battery. Doesn't reduce resistance meaningfully, doesn't reduce noise.
-sent from the microchip implanted in my forearm
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
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rleffler
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:48 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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Steve,
This question will almost generate as much emotion and response as if you asked if it’s best to prime and what primer to use.
There are aircraft built and flying with both methods. Both methods work.
I’m a former audio engineer and ground loops were always a nightmare to debug. I won’t attempt to convince you that one method is better than another. I made the decision to run a dedicated ground to the back. I used #2 welding cable to get a little more flexibility and save a bit of weight.
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:08 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Battery Cable
Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
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Dave Saylor
Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 210
Location: GILROY, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:50 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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I've had success using a short cable from the negative battery terminal to the airframe. The starter and alternator should ground well via the engine block, but some people end up grounding those items to the engine case or engine mount or airframe as necessary. In any case you'll want to ground the engine case with a conductor capable of handling the starter's current.
I had to ground my oil temp sender to the airframe, even with a robust engine case ground. It would send erroneous readings depending on alternator output. Grounding the alternator had no effect, so I just ran a wire from near the temp sender to the firewall.
--Dave
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Steven DeFord <riveteddragon(at)gmail.com (riveteddragon(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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--Dave
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:50 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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Standard approach:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Run a #2 wire from your battery(s) master solenoid(s) to the firewall mounted starter solenoid
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Run a #4 wire from the starter solenoid to the starter
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Run a #4 wire from the starter ground terminal to the firewall ground block. This is where you also ground the battery. Use a block like this so you have a place for all your other ground connections: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/elecsystem07-03463-6.php
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Run a #6 wire from the alternator output to a 70 amp breaker on the firewall (assuming you are using a standard 60amp alternator), from there to the battery side of the starter solenoid. The alternator will share the starter ground.
The #2 to the starter solenoid compensates for the long cable run. The short #4 cable from the solenoid to the starter is big enough to handle the starting current but short enough to not have approachable voltage drop. As every amp of power going to the starter needs to get back to the battery, you need to ground the most power hungry component (the starter) with a ground at least as good as the supply.
I run the cables going to the alternator and starter though fire sleeve.
Be very careful of “chassis ground”. You can end up with the starter or alternator trying to find ground via a path that you do not want – like your avionics.
Welding cable works well for these applications.
Carl
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:07 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Battery Cable
Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Bob Turner
Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Battery Cable |
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I followed the plans, e.g., I use the airframe for the ground for the starter. Probably the weak point is the cable from the engine to firewall. As pointed out above, if that cable fails the current may find a return path not intended, e.g., some small gauge wire. That cable needs regular inspection. I did try my best to avoid ground loops with the avionics, especially audio circuits. My audio is noise-free.
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Bob Turner
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partner14
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 540
Location: Granbury Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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What quite a few of us have done is run a SECOND ground from the engine to the firewall. Short, easy, and will work great if the other ground goes south.
Don
From: Bob Leffler <rv(at)thelefflers.com>
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:26 PM
Subject: RE: Battery Cable
#yiv3767072160 #yiv3767072160 -- _filtered #yiv3767072160 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3767072160 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv3767072160 #yiv3767072160 p.yiv3767072160MsoNormal, #yiv3767072160 li.yiv3767072160MsoNormal, #yiv3767072160 div.yiv3767072160MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv3767072160 a:link, #yiv3767072160 span.yiv3767072160MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3767072160 a:visited, #yiv3767072160 span.yiv3767072160MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3767072160 span.yiv3767072160EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv3767072160 .yiv3767072160MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv3767072160 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv3767072160 div.yiv3767072160WordSection1 {} #yiv3767072160 Steve,
This question will almost generate as much emotion and response as if you asked if it’s best to prime and what primer to use.
There are aircraft built and flying with both methods. Both methods work.
I’m a former audio engineer and ground loops were always a nightmare to debug. I won’t attempt to convince you that one method is better than another. I made the decision to run a dedicated ground to the back. I used #2 welding cable to get a little more flexibility and save a bit of weight.
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steven DeFordSent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:08 PMTo: rv10-list(at)matronics.comSubject: Battery Cable
Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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Don A. McDonald
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:41 pm Post subject: Battery Cable |
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I did the same as Bob, for the same reasons, plus it gives a known near perfect path for the starter current.
But like Bob says, you're going to find literally hundreds of people who did it on their RV-10 both
ways, and everyone will defend their way. So just throw a dart or spin a wheel and choose.
It doesn't matter which side of the argument a person is on, they are correct.
Tim
On 1/10/2016 2:26 PM, Bob Leffler wrote:
| Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Steve,
This question will almost generate as much emotion and response as if you asked if it’s best to prime and what primer to use.
There are aircraft built and flying with both methods. Both methods work.
I’m a former audio engineer and ground loops were always a nightmare to debug. I won’t attempt to convince you that one method is better than another. I made the decision to run a dedicated ground to the back. I used #2 welding cable to get a little more flexibility and save a bit of weight.
Bob
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Steven DeFord
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 2:08 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Battery Cable
Quick question-- for the main battery cable(s), obviously the + lead needs to run forward, but have people been putting in a grounding wire up to the engine block & starter, or just chassis grounding? Seems like there are a few pounds to save if you don't have to run a ground wire, and I imagine that the battery/alternator/etc aren't especially noise/ground loop sensitive.
Steve
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| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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