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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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 Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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It's miserably cold outside, the dogs are walked and snoozing and my chores
are done so I thought I'd put up something for Kolbers.
A few years ago I wrote a lot about my adventures trying to get a poorly
built Mk III C/X to fly like a Kolb ought to. The airplane had started life
as a "C" but after a crash the cage was replaced with one for an "X" and
with only 25 hours on it, it had been through 4 owners by the time it came
to me. I called it the "Plane from Hell".
One of the things I did when I was trying to get the elevator to trim out
was make seals for the horizontal stabilizer. The seals did nothing for the
pitch trim problem but it gave an impressive improvement to rudder
effectiveness. Originallly, the testing was done with seals made with duct
tape. When I found the improvement to the rudder I decided to make more
permanent seals from fiberglass.
The rudder improvement I found was that the seals made it possible to pick
up a dropping wing during stall with rudder alone, just like I was taught
in the C172. Without the seals, neither my IIIC nor the IIIC/X would do
that. I should add that by the time I reached this point I had reset the
wing angle of incidence to the current recommendations so the airplane was
a full "X" by that time. Anyway, with the seals in place I could hold the
stick back against frame tube and pick up a wing with the rudder. In my "C"
I tested it at up to 1100 lb. gross weight. With the "X" I held it at stall
at a weight of 1280 lb. In both airplanes I held it for at least 1000 feet
of altitude loss and it was no problem at all to keep the wings level.
I didn't make any photos of the duct tape seals but I did of the seals made
from fiberglass. I made them right on the aircraft using duct tape as a
release agent, a standard Burt Rutan method. On the "X", since the
horizontal stabilizer is straight down the boom tube, I made two seals for
each side then bonded them together. If I had it to do again, I'd tape off
the underside, too, shoot some house sealing foam into the gap then sand
the top to shape so I could get a better form around the forward stab
mounting hinge. Another thought I've had is that I could probably have made
good seals that would have allowed easy folding with foam tape like that
used for sealing a camper shell to a pick up bed.
So, it's winter and a good time to do projects and making horizontal
stabilizer seals is a good one to make your Mk III a better, safer aircraft
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Good topic. I noticed a substantial difference in elevator effectiveness when I gap sealed the elevator on my MKIIIC to the horizontal stab (Not likely that I could gap seal it to the vertical stab...) and also added vortex generators to the underside of the horizontal stab at the 10% cord line of the stab and elevator combined cord line.
Please post pictures of your results, and be sure to not resize them; we got to keep Herb happy and lazy! <grin>
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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wakataka
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Any idea why sealing the elevator gap had such an effect on the rudder effectiveness? I wouldn't have expected that.
I'd love to see a photo of the seals you built. I'm planning to recover my Firestar next year and gap seals are one of the things I need to figure out how to install.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:12 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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I believe what happens is that the air leaking through the slot between the horizontal stabilizer and the boom tube causes the flow to go more vertically over the rudder rather than horizontally. I base this on the results of tuft testing I did on the Mk III's rear fuselage segment as seen in the video I shot of the tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw
I attached photos of the gap seals to the original post but just in case...... The photo shows the second set of seals with their peel ply covering with the first set of seals all trimmed up and ready to bond to the second set when they are cured and trimmed. This style of construction was only possible because the "plane from hell" had the horizontal stabilizer set on the center line of the tube.
Rick
On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 11:49 PM, wakataka <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "wakataka" <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)>
Any idea why sealing the elevator gap had such an effect on the rudder effectiveness? I wouldn't have expected that.
I'd love to see a photo of the seals you built. I'm planning to recover my Firestar next year and gap seals are one of the things I need to figure out how to install.
--------
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
Mark Twain
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:37 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Rick- How do you fold it? It looks to be a rigid assembly.
Bill Sullivan
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:15 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Wouldn't the air be going *down* through the tube-stabilizer gap? (Higher pressure on top of the tail.) That would still reduce the rudder's effectiveness, since vertical flow would disrupt horizontal flow across the rudder.
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I believe what happens is that the air leaking through the slot between the horizontal stabilizer and the boom tube causes the flow to go more vertically over the rudder rather than horizontally. I base this on the results of tuft testing I did on the Mk III's rear fuselage segment as seen in the video I shot of the tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw
I attached photos of the gap seals to the original post but just in case...... The photo shows the second set of seals with their peel ply covering with the first set of seals all trimmed up and ready to bond to the second set when they are cured and trimmed. This style of construction was only possible because the "plane from hell" had the horizontal stabilizer set on the center line of the tube.
Rick
On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 11:49 PM, wakataka <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)> wrote:
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mojavjoe
Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:43 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Couldn't the seals be attached to the boom tube under the horizontal stab. so it could be folded. Also if properly braced it might take the place of the upper wire bracing.
From: "Charlie England" <ceengland7(at)gmail.com>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:06:25 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals
Wouldn't the air be going *down* through the tube-stabilizer gap? (Higher pressure on top of the tail.) That would still reduce the rudder's effectiveness, since vertical flow would disrupt horizontal flow across the rudder.
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I believe what happens is that the air leaking through the slot between the horizontal stabilizer and the boom tube causes the flow to go more vertically over the rudder rather than horizontally. I base this on the results of tuft testing I did on the Mk III's rear fuselage segment as seen in the video I shot of the tests:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IG796iiymYw
I attached photos of the gap seals to the original post but just in case...... The photo shows the second set of seals with their peel ply covering with the first set of seals all trimmed up and ready to bond to the second set when they are cured and trimmed. This style of construction was only possible because the "plane from hell" had the horizontal stabilizer set on the center line of the tube.
Rick
On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 11:49 PM, wakataka <wakataka(at)charter.net (wakataka(at)charter.net)> wrote:
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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>At 11:56 AM 1/10/2016, you wrote:
I believe what happens is that the air leaking through the slot
between the horizontal stabilizer and the boom tube causes the flow to
go more vertically over the rudder rather than horizontally. I base
this on the results of tuft testing I did on the Mk III's rear
fuselage segment as seen in the video I shot of the tests:
>
Rick,
I believe if you check it out you will find that while you are in
level flight the tail has to exert a downward force. This means the
air pressure on top of the horizontal stabilizer will be greater than
that found on the bottom side. Air will always move from high to low
pressure. So, if any air is moving through the gap, it will be down
through the gap not up.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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What if the tail section is on a few feet from the prop which is generating
a very strong rotating column of air directly on the tail section?
Air flow over the tail of a Kolb is interesting based on prop wash. I get a
pretty good idea of what the air is doing based on crankcase residue being
blown from the vent tube and sticking to the tail section.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:17 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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All, the reason I suspect that the flow through the slot is vertical is because I found the effectiveness of the seals while doing stall testing. When I held it in a falling leaf stall the aircraft was descending at over 1000 feet per minute. The elevator was deflected up to its limit. On top of that the greater area of the rudder is above the horizontal stabilizer.As far as propwash is concerned, the Plane from Hell had a 2.62 ratio gearbox so at idle the prop was only spinning at 900 rpm or so. On my airplane the "C" gearbox has 4.00 gears and prop rpm at idle is only 550 (it only turns 1500 at full throttle). I could detect no difference between the two airplanes.
I do wish I'd tuft tested the rudder flow, but at the time I was content to get one more thing on that damnable airplane fixed that I just moved on to the next problem.
Rick
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:59 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
What if the tail section is on a few feet from the prop which is generating
a very strong rotating column of air directly on the tail section?
Air flow over the tail of a Kolb is interesting based on prop wash. I get a
pretty good idea of what the air is doing based on crankcase residue being
blown from the vent tube and sticking to the tail section.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
--
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Many years ago I made some gaps seals to go between the horizontal stab and the tube of my MKIII. The trick is having something that gets real close to the stab, but still allows the horizontal tail to fold up. Here is what I did: go to Lowes and get some 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/16" aluminum angle. Along the side that you will have next to the stab, you will glue some rubber u-channel from Aircraft Spruce, part # 05-02200 ( https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/uchannel.php?clickkey=429408 ) The stab folds up and down while just barely touching the rubber u-channel.
In front of the front hinge, the space is too wide, and you will need to use 3/4" by 3/4" by 1/16" aluminum angle to fill up the gap. Also it was easier to get everything to line up by having the piece in front of the hinge opposite - or upside down - as it attached to the fuselage compared to the section behind the hinge because the stab is not attached parallel to the tube, the front of the stab is higher. This causes the gap to be bigger in front which means you have to spacer out the front of the 1/2" angle away from the fuselage a bit to keep it up against the stab. Which means you have to bend the aluminum angle a bit to keep it at a constant angle against the stab, and you need to fill that space between the tube and the angle with balsa wood or similar to fill the gap and make it look right.
Hopefully the pictures will make sense.
One other thing - if you put the u-channel on last, don't use Gorilla glue. It sticks great, but it also bubbles out underneath and looks terrible. As you can see.
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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Rex Rodebush
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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I've got gap seals on everything but the horiz. stab. to fuselage tube. My M3X flies good it seems to me. What would be the expected improvement if I add the stab. to tube seal?
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rickofudall
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:15 pm Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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As I said in my first email, you get improved rudder control and the ability to pick up a wing with the rudder during an approach stall.
Rick
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" <jrrodebush(at)gmail.com (jrrodebush(at)gmail.com)>
I've got gap seals on everything but the horiz. stab. to fuselage tube. My M3X flies good it seems to me. What would be the expected improvement if I add the stab. to tube seal?
Read this topic online here:
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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| Rex Rodebush wrote: | | I've got gap seals on everything but the horiz. stab. to fuselage tube. My M3X flies good it seems to me. What would be the expected improvement if I add the stab. to tube seal? |
I had two reasons: one is that with a heavy passenger, my MKIII did not have enough elevator authority at max forward CG and minimum airspeeds. The vortex generators on the wings give the ability to fly an approach at 45 mph with a 26 mph stall speed, even with a passenger. But at those speeds and CG conditions, when it comes time to flare, pulling the stick back did not raise the nose, the AOA did not change with elevator movement.
However, gap sealing the elevators to the horizontal stab, sealing the stab to the fuslelage, and adding VG's to the underside of the stab gave more control authority in that particular situation, the elevators became more effective.
The second is that many years ago I got obsessive about removing all the drag I could, I wanted to be able to cruise at 65 with the lowest possible throttle setting, and any sort of gap like that adds drag.
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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Richard:
Did you make one change at a time and test after each change?
Where did you place the vg's on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer?
I didn't realize how much the flaps stole air from the elevators until I did
a little experiment with a 220 lb passenger. I had been demonstrating some
aggressive stalls, dives, and pull outs, when I got the idea to try it with
full flaps. On my Kolb MKIII that is 40 degrees. Pushed the nose straight
down, hit 85 mph, tried to do an abrupt pull out and the aircraft never
changed attitude with the stick full back. Got rid of the flaps and she
pulled right out.
After that experiment I could then understand the possibility of running out
of elevator at extremely slow speeds with a heavy passenger on landing.
I have decided to install vg's on my MKIII. Now I need to buy some,
probably from John Gilpin . Dan Horton, one of my airplane buddies has said
he will give me a hand with the install. How far back from the leading edge
do you place the front edge of the vg for best all around results.
Too cold to play airplane at Gantt International Airport, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Rex Rodebush
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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I don't have V.G.'s but was able to do a full stall landing with a 220# passenger. I do have the larger horizontal stabilizer that was called for shortly after the original Xtra came out. That may be a factor.
The drag reduction makes good sense so I'll probably go ahead and put the seals on. Thanks.
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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John; it's been a while, but as I remember, I put the VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab, test flew it, made a lot of landings, ssaw improvement. Then I put gap seals between the stab & the elevator, same tests, saw more improvement. Then I added the gap seal between the stab and the fuselage, did not notice much difference.
The VG's on the underside of the stab are in a straight line; the innermost one has it's back end at 7" aft of the leading edge, measured with the ruler parallel to the boom tube. The outermost one is at the hinge line and 7" from the outboard end. I have no idea if this location is optimum, I had read that 10% of chord is a good rule of thumb, so I put them there, did not experiment with moving them around. Jack Hart has his right behind the leading edge: http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly62.html
This page shows them at a fixed distance ahead of the hinge line http://www.vortex-generators.com/installation-of-vortex-generators.html as does this one http://www.speedcomfly.com/sito-ecommerce/file_info/vortex.pdf
If you would like to try several different locations to find the optimum and let us know, I will gladly move mine to a better position!
My web pages are now on George Alexander's web site, where I've got some fairly extensive details on how I did the VG thing. Here is the one for the MKIII: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Vortex%20Generators.html
Here is the one for the FSII: some of the data overlaps a bit and it is also useful. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/FSII%20Vortex%20Generators.html
Something you might think of trying, - and I enjoyed doing the process - take your VG's and tape them on and try different measurements. I would use little squares of that aluminum metal duct tape, cut a slot in the middle of the square and poke the VG through, apply to wing, go fly, make notes. Move them to a different spot and do it again. That is how I came to the conclusion as to where they worked best on my airplane. When you hit the sweet spot, you can tell. It is subtle and subjective, but you will know it when it happens. OTOH, if you just took my numbers and used them, you would still like it, but that might not be the ideal setup for Miss P'Fer, and as much work as you have put into the airplane over the years, you ought to go for ideal rather than just better. Besides, once you get involved in the process; slow flying, stalling, moving them to a new spot, flying again, better here, not as good there - it becomes quite intriguing. A Quest for Perfection, very addictive.
When you get done, you will find that you now have a different airplane. Kind of like taking Sweet Thing out to dinner, and suddenly realizing that she has somehow lost 50 pounds and become 20 years younger... Enjoy!
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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George Alexander
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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| John Hauck wrote: | Richard:
= S = N = I = P =
I have decided to install vg's on my MKIII.
= S = N = I = P =
Too cold to play airplane at Gantt International Airport, Alabama.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Well, without a doubt, someone has hacked his account and posing as John Hauck. Either that or the cold has gotten to him. Based on the quote above about installing VGs on his Kolb MK III one or the other has to be the case.
HAPPY NEW YEAR Everyone!
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George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net |
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:03 pm Post subject: Horizontal stabilizer seals |
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John,
VG's under the horizontal stabilizer leading edge will give you a
little more nose up.
If the VG's do not do the job for you with the full flaps, you may
want to try them on the wing too. By placing VG's on the wing,
they move the wings center of lift toward the tail. Since this
effect is over a much greater area and length, it may produce a
greater favorable effect than just putting them on the horizontal
stabilizer.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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