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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:38 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
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jblake207(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:06 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:18 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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I knew the calm was to good to last.
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:53, Jon Blake <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but .... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
| | - The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List |
|
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Dawg |
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:35 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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How bout that Trump, I bet he could make spark plugs great again. He would make spark plugs WIN, and so great, they'd be terrific. His spark plugs would be so Winning.......believe him, they would be the so winningest spark plugs your heads would spin. Since all other spark plugs are the worst ever! He would make a deal with spark plugs and make them pay for themselves......Believe it.
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:17 PM, Bill Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]I knew the calm was to good to last.
Sent from my iPad
On Apr 28, 2016, at 10:53, Jon Blake <jblake207(at)comcast.net (jblake207(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
[quote]Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs..in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
First.  I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back.  I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either.  But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.Â
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong.  I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR!  I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.Â
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".  Well yes, to a certain degree, but .....   If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional?  If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well?  No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it.  But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.Â
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times.  Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it? Â
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are. Â
Look at it this way.  If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization?  You could look at it either way.Â
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise.  Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information.  I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs.  I get it that this made the radio noise go away.  I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way. Â
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs.  They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges. Â
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.Â
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod.  If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.Â
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people.  To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.Â
Mark Bitterlich
--
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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
|
|
Spot on, Mark!
About 10 years ago, I replaced the original Russian wiring harness with
the solution from Dennis.
I immediately had a much smoother running engine.
Two to three percent drops in stead of >5 what I always had, even with
brand-new very expensive Russian plugs.
But also more noise on my Russian radio¹s.
So I changed the radio. I installed a Becker.
No noise problems at all.
Jan
On 27/04/16 21:36, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs
must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do
not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before
they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck
somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to
me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional?
If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it
for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I
had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires
and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and
hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight
miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with
rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday
Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to
those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which
ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they
came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi
SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed
better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug
changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How
about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus
Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here
aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield,
which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that
they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes
along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise.
In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark
plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead
a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the
fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that
you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance
at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy
venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that
someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made
the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with
that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the
same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the
chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus
hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More
spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix
them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires
and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark.
This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also
extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The
consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs
always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes
easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being
left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that
is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker
radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do
this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have
your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will
bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:00 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
|
|
I installed Dennis' ignition wire kit 4 years ago and have zero problems w/ radio noise. In fact, one of the biggest compliments I get regarding my 52 is the quality operation of the original radio and intercom. Not fun to dial up freq's during busy moments in the cockpit - but rock solid dependability.
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Jan Mevis <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:33:24 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Spot on, Mark!
About 10 years ago, I replaced the original Russian wiring harness with
the solution from Dennis.
I immediately had a much smoother running engine.
Two to three percent drops in stead of >5 what I always had, even with
brand-new very expensive Russian plugs.
But also more noise on my Russian radio¹s.
So I changed the radio. I installed a Becker.
No noise problems at all.
Jan
On 27/04/16 21:36, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
[quote]
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs
must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do
not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before
they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck
somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to
me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional?
If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it
for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I
had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires
and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and
hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight
miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with
rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday
Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to
those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which
ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they
came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi
SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed
better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug
changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How
about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus
Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here
aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield,
which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that
they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes
along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise.
In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark
plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead
a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the
fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that
you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance
at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy
venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that
someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made
the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with
that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the
same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the
chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus
hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More
spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix
them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires
and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark.
This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also
extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The
consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs
always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes
easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being
left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14
for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that
is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker
radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do
this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have
your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will
bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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johnrobertnolan(at)gmail.
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
|
|
I have the conversion from Dennis. The engine runs great and starts the
first try almost every time. No radio noise too. I agree with Mark on spark
plugs. For something so easily replaced at relatively low cost one would
ask why someone would increase that risk of failure when flying a single
engine aircraft. I guess we all have our preferences when it comes to spark
plug maintenance.
John
On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 6:59 AM, Rico Jaeger <rocknpilot(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
I installed Dennis' ignition wire kit 4 years ago and have zero problems
w/ radio noise. In fact, one of the biggest compliments I get regarding my
52 is the quality operation of the original radio and intercom. Not fun to
dial up freq's during busy moments in the cockpit - but rock solid
dependability.
Rico Jaeger
915 S. 11th Ave.
Wausau, WI. 54401
715.529.7426
//
1966 Cessna 150F ^/---//-X
N8558G //
Hangar #35 / AUW
//
1992 Yakovlev Yak 52 ^/---//-X
N21YK //
Hangar #21 / AUW
________________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com <
owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Jan Mevis <
jan.mevis(at)informavia.be>
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 10:33:24 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Spot on, Mark!
About 10 years ago, I replaced the original Russian wiring harness with
the solution from Dennis.
I immediately had a much smoother running engine.
Two to three percent drops in stead of >5 what I always had, even with
brand-new very expensive Russian plugs.
But also more noise on my Russian radioÄ…s.
So I changed the radio. I installed a Becker.
No noise problems at all.
Jan
On 27/04/16 21:36, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD"
<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
>
><mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
>
>First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13
>years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a
>car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug
>change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else.
>13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
>
>My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a
>normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out
>of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent
>that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that
>would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs
>must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do
>not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before
>they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck
>somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to
>me, and I did not enjoy it.
>
>Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it".
>Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be
>running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional?
> If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it
>for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I
>had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires
>and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and
>hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight
>miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
>
>I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I
>could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with
>rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday
>Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to
>those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which
>ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they
>came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi
>SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed
>better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug
>changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How
>about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus
>Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here
>aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
>
>
>Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than
>there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield,
>which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that
>they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes
>along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise.
>In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark
>plug wires are.
>
>Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead
>a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the
>fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that
>you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
>
>There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark
>plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have
>an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise
>came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to
>consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark
>plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says
>that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance
>at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy
>venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that
>someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made
>the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with
>that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the
>same thing, I might feel the same way.
>
>But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine
>plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of
>heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are
>cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical
>to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go
>through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They
>are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts,
>thus changing heat ranges.
>
>Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the
>chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus
>hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More
>spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix
>them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires
>and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:35 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
|
|
Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: “I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.†Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great! Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but … “For the record†… there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment. If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: “Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive.†I’m sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGK’s, 18 of them, are less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF, his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows all about that part of the deal, but Jon… if you think that is the best way to go… good for you. You’re not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Yak-List: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
[quote]Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: “I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.” Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great! Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but … “For the record” … there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment. If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: “Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive.” I’m sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGK’s, 18 of them, are less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF, his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows all about that part of the deal, but Jon… if you think that is the best way to go… good for you. You’re not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)>
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but .... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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Dawg |
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Looigi
Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install on my Yak 52 in the future.
May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some people are having issues while others are not.
For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not. They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet the results are different.
Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on one mag only. He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.
Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!
Chris
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:42 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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Your opinion is noted.
And ignored.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:36 PM
To: Yaklist
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>> wrote:
Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: “I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.” Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great! Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but … “For the record” … there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment. If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: “Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive.” I’m sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGK’s, 18 of them, are less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF, his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows all about that part of the deal, but Jon… if you think that is the best way to go… good for you. You’re not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>> wrote:
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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Very immature statement on my part.
Mark
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD [mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 10:31 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Your opinion is noted.
And ignored.
________________________________
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:36 PM
To: Yaklist
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
take it off line.
On Apr 28, 2016, at 11:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>> wrote:
Jon, I think it is clear I never called anyone a liar. I did say: “I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs.” Now I have. One with a radial, and the other with an opposed engine. Great! Glad to hear that you have had that experience.
Dropping spark plugs, I do not disagree with anything you said, but … “For the record” … there have been instances of the center of the Russian plugs blowing out with high compression gases being ejected through the hole into the engine compartment. If that gaseous stream ignites, you could lose the aircraft. This cannot be adequately tested under pressure in a spark plug cleaner/tester and this exact hazard has yet to be reported with automotive plugs.
You said: “Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive.” I’m sorry, but I do not think that is an accurate statement when dealing with the M-14 engine. A set of new Russian spark plugs (if you can find new ones), can go anywhere from $400 to $600. New NGK’s, 18 of them, are less than $70. A cheap A&P runs about $35/hour, correct? He spends 2 hours cleaning, pressure testing, gapping and then annealing the copper washers, POOF, his bill is equal to a new set of plugs. Do it yourself? A good pressure testing spark plug cleaning machine is over $400. And again, you saved a lot of time and ended up with brand new plugs.
Can you clean mass electrode or NGK plugs and make them last an extremely long time? Apparently so. I choose not to.
But the real conversation was about the automotive wires. The spark plugs are really just a bonus to the whole deal for the reasons I said, and still believe to be accurate. Anyone who has changed plug wires in the original setup knows all about that part of the deal, but Jon… if you think that is the best way to go… good for you. You’re not dumb, you are not a liar, you are an aircraft owner and it is your decision, which everyone here already knows anyway.
Mark
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com<mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com> [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Blake
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 9:53 PM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com<mailto:yak-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues
Well, for the record... And without calling others a liar, I have over 900 hours on my current stock plugs in my stock 285HP CJ and they don't look like footballs yet. Installed them in 2005, rotate and clean at every annual. So I completely believe the man when he says he has 13 years on his plugs... In fact, I have no reason NOT to believe him.
The airplane I owned before the CJ was a Mooney 201 with almost 1000 hours on one set of plugs and about 8 years. Additionally, I helped maintain that airplane after I sold it for an additional 2 years without installing new plugs. So plugs will last a long time if properly maintained, cleaned, gapped, rotated each year or 100 hours like on the Mooney.
So now you've heard of two people going 13 and 11 years on a set of stock plugs...in radial engines. In a regularly flying airplane (CJ) and not a car sitting for 10 years. And before you make some statement about how I too must be telling an untruth, come on over and I'll show you the plugs, engine and maintenance records. I bought a set of new plugs from Jim Selby Sr. In 2006 and they still sit in the locker unused.
The gentleman didn't imply that others should get 13 years out of their plugs... He simply stated that he's gotten 13 years and asked a question about the advantage of the auto plug conversion. He simply asked the WHY... So without belittling anyone, the real answer on a forum intended to inform and educate should have been... Well, in short, the answer Dennis provided.
So Lancer, the answer to your question is this... Well, at least for me... I've been running my stock Chinese spark plugs for 11 years (~900 hours) with no issues...and plan to continue until they become unserviceable. Keep 'em clean and rotated. When you start having issues look at the wires first as Dennis suggests. I helped a friend change one p lead on his stock CJ engine and that solved his problem.
Also for the record, if you drop ANY spark plug... Russian, Chinese or American (REM 38/40) toss it in the trash... For that matter...even if you drop a NGK plug on concrete toss it in the trash before you install in your airplane, motorcycle or even lawn mower. The ceramic coating around the electrode breaks and energy is lost once dropped and damaged. The only way to tell for certain is pressure testing if you have access to the equipment. When your plugs start looking like a football, or wont pass the pressure test or mag drop is too great...ask an A&P and follow his advice...or change them out... One way You can tell if the plugs/wires are not firing correctly is CHT or external temperature tester/probe.
I'm not an aero or mechanical engineer, but I am an A&P... Many are correct when they say it's easier to simply replace the plugs each year at the annual, but that is also an expensive option...easy, but more expensive. In fact, I did just that when doing the annual condition inspection on a friend's CJ last fall.
Hope this helps and encourages you.
JB
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
"Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil<mailto:mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>> wrote:
First. I have never in my entire lifetime heard of someone going 13 years on one set of spark plugs. Let me take that back. I did park a car once and it sat 10 years, and then I junked it. It never had a plug change in 10 years either. But plugs do wear out, like anything else. 13 years is pretty much an amazing statement.
My point is, that if you fly any Russian Radial what is considered a normal amount of hours each year, you are not going to get 13 years out of one set of plugs. Not on ANY spark plug on ANY engine! If the gent that said that wants to insist on it being accurate, so be it. But that would also imply that anyone who does NOT get 13 years out of their plugs must be doing something wrong. I change my NGK plugs EVERY YEAR! I do not wait for things to go bad in airplanes. I try to fix them before they get to the point where they are totally inoperative, or I am stuck somewhere with an engine that won't start, because that has happened to me, and I did not enjoy it.
Which brings us to the statement: "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Well yes, to a certain degree, but ..... If my engine appears to be running good, should I not do a compression check during the Conditional? If my engine is running fine, should I never change the oil and run it for 13 years as well? No. And the writer was NOT implying that, but I had to mention it. But realize that if you run on the original wires and plugs a normal number of hours per year, they are going to fail, and hopefully when you are not far from home. Hopefully it will be a slight miss, and not a totally dead cylinder, or a dead TWO cylinders.
I have a lot of experience with plug wires on M-14 engines. A LOT. I could go into the engineering design differences between solid wires with rubber insulation that have to be sealed in a metal tube to work (Faraday Shield) without tearing up electronics in every direction, compared to those used in every automobile engine made in modern times. Guess which ones work better? I put silicone racing wires in my M-14 as soon as they came out, right after I helped a friend do the same change on a Sukhoi SU-26 that belonged to a world renowned aerobatic pilot. I then observed better idling, easier starting, along with MASSIVELY CHEAPER spark plug changes. Anyone have the going price of a brand new Russian plug? How about 18 of them? Anyone ever read the articles on Chinese versus Russian plugs? (Which by the way are also unverified). Are people here aware of what can happen if you drop a Russian plug and then install it?
Factually there is more RF noise escaping from modern plug wires than there is from ANY plug wire that is totally enclosed in a Faraday Shield, which is the original Russian design, because that is the technology that they had, and that is the technology that they used. But what also goes along with that fact is how susceptible the radio itself is to RF noise. In that regard, not all radios are created equal, just like not all spark plug wires are.
Look at it this way. If you refuse to take immunizations, and you lead a healthy life for years and then catch some terrible disease, is it the fault of not eradicating the disease from the planet, or the fact that you refused to take the immunization? You could look at it either way.
There are a TON of benefits to using racing automotive silicone spark plugs wires, and also automobile plugs. A HUGE downside is if you have an existing radio that worked fine right up until the increase in noise came along. So the person that has that happen personally, refuses to consider changing the radio, but instead sits there and blames the spark plug wires and plugs themselves, and then gets on this forum and says that the new wires and plugs offered no improvement in engine performance at all, and just increased noise. Folks, that is a poor soul guy venting his frustration and is NOT accurate information. I get it that someone went back to Russian wires and plugs. I get it that this made the radio noise go away. I get it that anyone would be frustrated with that whole experience! And if I was in that persons shoes and did the same thing, I might feel the same way.
But FACTUALLY, automotive plugs are better than Russian M-14 engine plugs. They are cheaper (by a huge amount). You have a SELECTION of heat ranges that allow you to tune the plugs to the engine. They are cheap enough to be consumable, as it is easier/cheaper/ more practical to purchase new ones than it is to buy a spark plug cleaner, and then go through re-gapping, pressure testing, annealing the washers, etc. They are also easier to inspect and determine combustion temperature impacts, thus changing heat ranges.
Wires: They are for the most part much more separated, thus reducing the chance of cross-firing. Changing one wire is a matter of minutes versus hours. The Russian wires have plug ends that need to be assembled. More spare parts required. Automotive wires are consumable. You don't fix them. You throw them away, and AGAIN save time and money. The new wires and new plugs fire more consistently and have a much more reliable spark. This is most noticed with improvements in idling RPM, thus also extending engine life, versus a mis-firing, rough running engine. The consistency also places less strain in the mag coil. With the plugs always being in a new condition, and changed every year, starting becomes easier and more reliable. Less chance of running out of air and being left in some hole with no high pressure air, and then propping an M-14 for the first time in your life.
But they do introduce some additional RF noise. If you have a radio that is highly susceptible to that (and I've seen a number of the Becker radios that are. Not *ALL* but some....) then you might not want to do this mod. If you are thinking about it, ask around to those that have your exact model of radio first and see how they are doing with it.
The reason I am writing is to pass accurate information. This will bother some people. To those that it does, I hope you will get over it.
Mark Bitterlich
--
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Lancer
Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 30
Location: Cairns, Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Re: Auto wiring issues |
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Obviously there are some of you not getting good plug life. I can't comment on the M14P as my experience has only been with the HS6-A and the factory Chinese plugs.
The aircraft I referred to has been regularly flown over the 13 years that I have been flying it and it has been flown by a number of different pilots and conducting Adventure Flights up until recently when I purchased it. In the 13 years it has seen 2 engines which had their own plugs so the plugs have not had any more than 600hrs on them but were still serviceable upon the engine removal. I asked our full time engineer if he had ever replaced a plug in his time servicing the aircraft and he had only ever cleaned and replaced them.
Each service the plugs were removed, bead blasted clean, pressure tested and refitted to the engine. Over the years I have had to remove the odd bottom plug as it was fouled but after a clean and test was replaced and worked fine.
A friend recently purchased a CJ and it had the Mo Plug conversion and I couldn't see the point after my experience with my aircraft. He also owns another CJ which is running std plugs and bought a set of spare plugs for it not long after he bought the aircraft and has not needed to use them after 2 1/2 years flying.
I don't know if the Russian plugs are not as reliable as the Chinese plugs but I'd be surprised if there was any real difference as they both share a lot of common technology.
Those who have had plug problems, Have you been blasting and pressure testing the plugs when servicing the engine or have you been cleaning them some other way or not cleaning them at all??
I couldn't agree more about binning dropped plugs......If you drop it you then drop it in the bin!!
Regards,
Lance
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