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[Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

In the for "what it is worth" category since by this time everything has already pretty much been said, I will add my personal experiences anyway.  I have followed the slow upgrade of the ignition system on the M-14 for about the last 15 years.   



Havard, original designs on both Russian and American engines sometimes used solid wire ignition lines running from the mag to the spark plugs.  This generated a TERRIFIC amount of noise and had to be completely shielded.  In fact these solid core wires are actually illegal to use on an automobile in the United States because of the noise they generate.  



There are many problems with this design by the way,  foremost of which is cross-fire.  With this design, it is easy for insulation to break down on wires internal to the tube shield (where you have absolutely no way to see it) and cause the wrong plug to fire at the wrong time, sometimes in fact with two plugs firing.   It is an ugly problem.  When you finally do find a bad wire in this tube shield, you have to pull it out and get a new one in there.  This oftentimes results in a lot of friction to surrounding wires in the tube actually causing even MORE problems.  This also puts an extreme load on mag coils, causing them to fail early.   But for decades people put up with these problems since there was no other known solution. 



One of the first improvements on the Russian design came when people tried to use silicone insulated wire to replace the original Russian wire.  Why?  Because the Russian wire failed fairly quickly because of the insulating material used.  Then due to the problems with the Russian plugs efforts began to try to figure out some way to use a standard automobile sparkplug.  One of the interesting features of the Russian plugs was that if one got dropped and you didn't know about it, it could end up with the center of it blowing out under pressure ... as in the engine running ..... and you had a potential disaster in the engine compartment.   I have YET to see an automotive plug do that.  



Finally, there was the Dennis Savarese design.  Simple.  External high performance ignition wires feeding standard automobile spark plugs of the proper heat range.  All the above problems just described go away and the engine performance, idling, tip in, etc., all vastly improve.  



Noise.... well Hans Oortman <pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl> just wrote as good (probably better actually) posting than I could.  But I will add one thing.  These spark plug wires and these spark plugs are installed in more everyday automobiles than can be counted.  All of them have radio receivers.  All of them seem to get along just fine.  In my particular case, I have HF, VHF and UHF radios all transmitting and receiving in my car with no problem at all.   I have put a ton of these kits into MANY M-14 engines and the only radio that gave me real headaches was the same one you have.  That said, after a lot of work with shielding of just about everything that can be imagined, we finally got acceptable performance out of it.  Not great, but acceptable.  Doc Kemp is correct, some radios from that company used less than great shielding in their I.F. stages and are extremely sensitive to noise.  



I am sorry to say this to you, but going back to the original design on the M-14 ignition system is in my opinion a huge step backwards.  I do not doubt the problems you reported are true, but this is the first time I have heard them reported on the YAK LIST from you.  Maybe I am incorrect.  But the fact is that everything you reported as failing could have been caused by numerous things installed incorrectly or adjusted incorrectly.   This includes the radio installation.   The magneto in this engine is a work of art, and it takes an artist to adjust it properly.... or a mechanic that truly knows the thing inside out and how to set it up.  This, along with plug gaps, exact radio models, etc., can lead to every problem you listed.  



I understand that you are happy with your choice, but I do not agree with the view that others should follow in your footsteps.  There are just too many of these kits out there working PERFECTLY for the kit itself to be at fault.  



R/S,



Mark Bitterlich

 



--

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yaknorway52(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Hi Mark/ All



I sure appreciate your effort in explaining the system for me. For sure its

complicated and just a handfull of good mechanics understand it. My self

started questioned my own ability to do propper installation an adjustment

of the mags.



To be honest, the radio noise has been a night mare on my Yak all since two

thing. I had an issue with a blow out of gasket between mixture collector

and crank house. This resulted in a hire of Termikas expert coming to

Norway, removed engine, replaced gasket, installed engine. Same time they

also installed Auto ignition kit. Engine not leaking any oil but radio

noise is a fact. Magnetos was now adjusted by engine mechanic from

Termikas, After some thinking we went on with Magneto filter on the P-lead,

same shit. Next in line, checked antenna connection and replaced cable,

check grounding on antenna, same shit. Then i completely removed all Com

wiring, including PTT, I mean everything out on the concrete. New wiring

created on bench in compliance with wiring diagram on Becker AR4201 and PM

1200 intercom. Installed that and hit the tire and light the fire assuming

noise is gone, but same shit! Then back and forward, understand me correct.

This is not much noise, the noise is only when receiving a signal, its not

a continuous noise. Its like the signal want close so the squelch

adjustment is pretty high in setting resulting in lack of range on

receiving signal. Further on we mistake the Auto kit to be the key point of

noise. Yes engine is running dam good, start is no issue and everything is

good. Have it flown about 50 hrs after installation I decided to rewire the

original harness. Sent that to Jill at M-14P and she replaced all the old

harness( from 2008 Termikas overhaul) And i picked it up at Oshkosh, toke

it home and removed Auto kit and installed the old system. Radio noise

almost gone and engine runs perfectly, with old spark plugs. Last flight I

had issue with misfire on a flight and checked all my old spark plugs in a

Champion tester under pressure. Found 4 plugs to be not so good and

replaced them. Then on next test flight I had almost perfect running but

not all the way so on a mag check airborne the No 2 misfires.



So Yes probably the Auto kit is good stuff but I have decided not to go

with it anymore. Everybody can't do the same thing you now:-)



I have just bought new shielded P-leads and gone re-wire that system now.

Removing the mag selector in rear cockpit and wire it like the 52W.

Hopefully then the small noise left is gone.



Have got quote now for overhauling the magnetos, 650Euro at Motorstar, 900

Euro at Termikas, 950Euro at Aerometal. A friend of me having a couple

M-14P laying in his yard will trade two new (Motorstar) overhauled magnetos

with some parts form me som hopefully I get out of it with not to much cash

out. Also getting a new kit of spark plugs. Then the system should be as

good as it can be, hopefully.



Appreciate all comments on the list and think this is the best thing about

follow you al in here. A lout of experience and help finding good solutions

- The Matronics Yak-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

yaknorway52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:59 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Hi,



Here is a video clip of the Radio noise I made almost one year ago. No

difference when disconnecting the USB.



https://vimeo.com/128255370



Med Vennlig Hilsen



Yak Norway

www.yaknorway.no

yaknorway52(at)gmail.com

Mobil: +47 952 50 103

Org No:916588054

2016-03-07 22:45 GMT+01:00 Håvard Dale <yaknorway52(at)gmail.com>:



[quote] Hi Mark/ All



 I sure appreciate your effort in explaining the system for me. For sure

 its complicated and just a handfull of good mechanics understand it. My

 self started questioned my own ability to do propper installation an

 adjustment of the mags.



 To be honest, the radio noise has been a night mare on my Yak all since

 two thing. I had an issue with a blow out of gasket between mixture

 collector and crank house. This resulted in a hire of Termikas expert

 coming to Norway, removed engine, replaced gasket, installed engine. Same

 time they also installed Auto ignition kit. Engine not leaking any oil but

 radio noise is a fact. Magnetos was now adjusted by engine mechanic from

 Termikas, After some thinking we went on with Magneto filter on the P-lead,

 same shit. Next in line, checked antenna connection and replaced cable,

 check grounding on antenna, same shit. Then i completely removed all Com

 wiring, including PTT, I mean everything out on the concrete. New wiring

 created on bench in compliance with wiring diagram on Becker AR4201 and PM

 1200 intercom. Installed that and hit the tire and light the fire assuming

 noise is gone, but same shit! Then back and forward, understand me correct.

 This is not much noise, the noise is only when receiving a signal, its not

 a continuous noise. Its like the signal want close so the squelch

 adjustment is pretty high in setting resulting in lack of range on

 receiving signal. Further on we mistake the Auto kit to be the key point of

 noise. Yes engine is running dam good, start is no issue and everything is

 good. Have it flown about 50 hrs after installation I decided to rewire the

 original harness. Sent that to Jill at M-14P and she replaced all the old

 harness( from 2008 Termikas overhaul) And i picked it up at Oshkosh, toke

 it home and removed Auto kit and installed the old system. Radio noise

 almost gone and engine runs perfectly, with old spark plugs. Last flight I

 had issue with misfire on a flight and checked all my old spark plugs in a

 Champion tester under pressure. Found 4 plugs to be not so good and

 replaced them. Then on next test flight I had almost perfect running but

 not all the way so on a mag check airborne the No 2 misfires.



 So Yes probably the Auto kit is good stuff but I have decided not to go

 with it anymore. Everybody can't do the same thing you now:-)



 I have just bought new shielded P-leads and gone re-wire that system now.

 Removing the mag selector in rear cockpit and wire it like the 52W.

 Hopefully then the small noise left is gone.



 Have got quote now for overhauling the magnetos, 650Euro at Motorstar, 900

 Euro at Termikas, 950Euro at Aerometal. A friend of me having a couple

 M-14P laying in his yard will trade two new (Motorstar) overhauled magnetos

 with some parts form me som hopefully I get out of it with not to much cash

 out. Also getting a new kit of spark plugs. Then the system should be as

 good as it can be, hopefully.



 Appreciate all comments on the list and think this is the best thing about

 follow you al in here. A lout of experience and help finding good solutions.



 Excuse my english, I am an Norwegian:-)



 Best Regards



 Havard Dale

 LN-HDA

 S/N 9111505

 Former Pink Floyd David Gilmour Yak 52:-)



 Med Vennlig Hilsen



 Yak Norway

 www.yaknorway.no

 yaknorway52(at)gmail.com

 Mobil: +47 952 50 103

 Org No:916588054

 2016-03-07 21:14 GMT+01:00 Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <

 mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>:



> 

> mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

>

> In the for "what it is worth" category since by this time everything has

> already pretty much been said, I will add my personal experiences anyway

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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