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fused or not

 
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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

i am mounting my capacitor about 3 inches from the main bus.i planned on connecting straight to the bus main lug with #12 wire and no fuse. should i fuse the cap. for 3'' run?

 bob noffs


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

On 3/26/2016 7:20 PM, bob noffs wrote:
Quote:
i am mounting my capacitor about 3 inches from the main bus.i planned
on connecting straight to the bus main lug with #12 wire and no fuse.
should i fuse the cap. for 3'' run?
bob noffs
Context?


If this is a filter capacitor for a dynamo alternator, shouldn't be a
problem.


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: fused or not Reply with quote

12awg seems way too big.
There is not much danger for a 3" wire shorting out. But capacitors have been known to short, not likely but possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:23 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

At 07:20 PM 3/26/2016, you wrote:
Quote:
i am mounting my capacitor about 3 inches from the main bus.i planned on connecting straight to the bus main lug with #12 wire and no fuse. should i fuse the cap. for 3'' run?
 bob noffs

No . . . that wire is not at-risk for
generating any smoke or burning of
other wires. No would a fuse prevent
the very rare condition where the capacitor
goes bad, swells up, smells bad and sometimes
bursts . . . the things should be on your
periodic replacement list . . . say every
5 years or so.

Also consider experiments to see if the
capacitor is necessary/useful. I've not been
able to measure any operational utility beyond
helping us get some PM alternator/rectifiers
to self-excite.



Bob . . .


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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:35 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

thanks guys for the info. i am told it is to keep noise out of the ecu.

 bob noffs
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
Quote:
At 07:20 PM 3/26/2016, you wrote:
Quote:
i am mounting my capacitor about 3 inches from the main bus.i planned on connecting straight to the bus main lug with #12 wire and no fuse. should i fuse the cap. for 3'' run?
 bob noffs

  No . . . that wire is not at-risk for
  generating any smoke or burning of
  other wires. No would a fuse prevent
  the very rare condition where the capacitor
  goes bad, swells up, smells bad and sometimes
  bursts . . . the things should be on your
  periodic replacement list . . . say every
  5 years or so.

  Also consider experiments to see if the
  capacitor is necessary/useful. I've not been
  able to measure any operational utility beyond
  helping us get some PM alternator/rectifiers
  to self-excite.



  Bob . . .


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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:40 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

i guess i don't really know how much a cap. pulls initially. i am sure somewhere i saw a schematic using 12 ga. if this is overkill what is recommended for a 10000uf?

 bob
On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 9:59 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

12awg seems way too big.
There is not much danger for a 3" wire shorting out.  But capacitors have been known to short, not likely but possible.

--------
Joe Gores




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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:05 am    Post subject: Re: fused or not Reply with quote

I do know what wire size to use for a 10000uf capacitor. But a capacitor only draws lots of current when it is first energized. And that is for such a short time (less than a second) that the wire does not even begin to warm up. A wild guess would be to use 18 awg. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will answer.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:41 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

FWIW I agree if there is no battery in the circuit.

If there is a battery then my advice would be to forget the capacitor.
I've run for many years without a capacitor with a 20 amp PM alternator
and a small battery. I've run many different ecu based electronic
devices (homemade and commercial) without a problem and without any
evidence that a capacitor would add any value. Even running my ignition
off that system makes no practical difference. Who needs extra parts and
extra maintenance issues. Lots of urban legend involved with the use of
this large capacitor from what I can tell. I'm not saying the battery
replaces the capacitor, I'm just saying that I've no experience running
without a battery.

Ken

On 27/03/2016 9:05 AM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:


I do know what wire size to use for a 10000uf capacitor. But a capacitor only draws lots of current when it is first energized. And that is for such a short time (less than a second) that the wire does not even begin to warm up. A wild guess would be to use 18 awg. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will answer.

--------
Joe Gores


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454211#454211



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bobnoffs



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 132
Location: northern wi.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

well........one failure mode of an engine with elec pumps etc. is alternator power only. whether or not i ever need the cap. is another issue but it was recommended i use one. this is for the honda/viking 110 installation.

 bob
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 8:39 AM, C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

FWIW I agree if there is no battery in the circuit.

If there is a battery then my advice would be to forget the capacitor.
I've run for many years without a capacitor with a 20 amp PM alternator and a small battery. I've run many different ecu based electronic devices (homemade and commercial) without a problem and without any evidence that a capacitor would add any value. Even running my ignition off that system makes no practical difference. Who needs extra parts and extra maintenance issues. Lots of urban legend involved with the use of this large capacitor from what I can tell. I'm not saying the battery replaces the capacitor, I'm just saying that I've no experience running without a battery.

Ken

On 27/03/2016 9:05 AM, user9253 wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

I do know what wire size to use for a 10000uf capacitor.  But a capacitor only draws lots of current when it is first energized.  And that is for such a short time (less than a second) that the wire does not even begin to warm up.  A wild guess would be to use 18 awg.  Maybe someone more knowledgeable will answer.

--------
Joe Gores




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454211#454211













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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

At 08:05 AM 3/27/2016, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

I do know what wire size to use for a 10000uf capacitor. But a capacitor only draws lots of current when it is first energized. And that is for such a short time (less than a second) that the wire does not even begin to warm up. A wild guess would be to use 18 awg. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will answer.

that short of run would be fine with 22AWG
but most of the TC world uses 20AWG minimum
under the cowl just for mechanical robustness.




Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:34 am    Post subject: fused or not Reply with quote

At 07:33 AM 3/27/2016, you wrote:
Quote:
thanks guys for the info. i am told it is to keep noise out of the ecu.
 bob noffs

That IS the legacy rationale for adding such things
and it's a deeply rooted idea did
a failure analysis on a modern, 100A alternator
that came equipped from the factory with a 680uF
electrolytic capacitor mounted right to the back
of the alternator.


[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20160327122948.0099ede8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]

I am quite certain that noise from this alternator on
EMC laboratory equipment would not be materially
reduced for having added the capacitor. I'd
LOVE to see an EMC test report that illuminates
the 'benefit'.

I just purchased a spectrum analyzer that sweeps
down to 1Hz and up to 2.4 Ghz. When I begin
development testing on the next generation of
PM alternator rectifier/regulators for B&C I will
quantify the value of adding this component
to our airplanes.




Bob . . .


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