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Avionics heat

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Fred Klein

Joined: 26 Mar 2012
Posts: 503

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:04 pm Post subject: Avionics heat

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:23 AM, Bob Hitchcock <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)> wrote:

Who uses fans, who uses ram air? How do you route your solution?

	


Bobâ€¦I have 3, 120 mm computer fans w/ louvers directing air towards windshieldâ€¦instrument module is spaced 1/2â€ from firewall and holes cut in bottom for intake air and circulation...



Not flying yetâ€¦no verification of actual performance.



Fred



[img]cid:8410C514-54D8-40C2-9BF3-4B692BD2B6C3(at)Home[/img]



[img]cid:96F3DD63-5AE2-4D6E-AC7E-8197D37236FB(at)Home[/img]

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:45 am Post subject: Avionics heat

I have a simpler (& lighter version of this, with a single slightly smaller fan above passenger knees & out of sight, blowing air into the instrument unit, and this emerges through a row of about 12 1/2" holes under the pilot part of the windscreen, offering modest demisting function. 

David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-04-20 05:04, Fred Klein wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		     	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:23 AM, Bob Hitchcock <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com (bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com)> wrote:

  Who uses fans, who uses ram air? How do you route your solution?

 	
 

 Bob...I have 3, 120 mm computer fans w/ louvers directing air towards windshield...instrument module is spaced 1/2" from firewall and holes cut in bottom for intake air and circulation...

  

 Not flying yet...no verification of actual performance.

  

 Fred

  

 [img]cid:14611439165717496c10f28311420972(at)doctors.org.uk[/img]

  

 [img]cid:14611439165717496c11b11516664929(at)doctors.org.uk[/img]

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 219

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: Avionics heat

Bob,

I tried a computer fan, which sucked air in through the bottom of the instrument panel and exhausted through windscreen slots in the top. It wasn't very effective and, when in flight, sucks through quite hot air that convects from the surface of the footwell firewall. It did have some effect of demisting the windows, but marginal at the time needed, which was during taxiing when the aircraft was still cool and not heat soaked.

This system was later changed to a cold air feed taken from the side of one of the NACA duct cockpit ventilators. This air feed is routed through a short 3/4" connecting SCAT to an exhaust tube behind the panel that squirts a jet of  cool (in the UK) air in the direction of the equipment behind the panel that need it. This was more effective, and sounds more complicated than it actually is.

Duncan McF.

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   ----Original Message----

From: bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com

Date: 19/04/2016 08:23

To: "Europa List"<europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: Europa-List: Avionics heat



--> Europa-List message posted by: Bob Hitchcock <bobhitchcock(at)icloud.com>



Hi All



Any recommendations for keeping the transponders and radios in the panel cool. Counter intuitively the replacement units need more cool air than early models.  



Radios now indicate a bigger Watt  from 8 to 15. And the Garmin mode S is up to 45 watt. The more the mode S is interrogated the harder it works and the hotter it gets.



Who uses fans, who uses ram air? How do you route your solution?



Regards



Bob



Mono XS

<bsp;         (And Get Some AWESOME bsp;    * The Builder\'s Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com

_                         p;                      -Matt Dralle, List Ad-===================================

bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:45 pm Post subject: Avionics heat

Hi Bob, David and Duncan

Really good advice will now contemplate. Many thanks

Regards



Bob

Mono XS

Gary.Leinberger(at)miller
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject: Avionics heat

In the attached picture you can see my panel. I (with the terrific help of Bud Yerly of Custom Flight) made the panel easily removable – takes about 10 minutes to remove the entire panel. This has paid off some many times, and makes doing  IFR 2 year checks very easy if the inspector wants to check everything.  

  

My plane is IFR with a Garmin 430W, a 330 GTX Mode S transponder, a Grand Rapids HX, an engine monitor, a Tru-Trax 2 axis autopilot, and several steam gauges. Yes, it all fits but it is tight. And it is heavy - 42 lbs. for the panel. And  it produces a great deal of heat. So we put in a three hose fan drawing air from the passenger foot well, and two exhaust fans – original two inch (as shown) but now one is a 4 inch fan. The top fans are on a thermostat and a timer, running off the secondary  battery. When I land, if the temps are up in the panel, the fan goes on for about 45 minutes.  

  

The three hoses from the fan go to the HX, 430W, and the EXP buss box (on the right side of picture with all the plugs over top of it). The box was made to improve cooling and keep stray wires or dropped tools from causing shorts in the  EXP buss). The two hoses  - to the Garmin and to the HX are not in the picture.   

  

The secondary battery also runs the radio and trim and autopilot through a “soaring” buss for use when the engine is off for soaring (I have the glider wings also), and can be used for clearance delivery on the ground so you don’t have  to run the engine (and possibly overheat) or wear the main battery down when getting your clearance. I do have the top mounted, belt driven 45 amp alternator as well as the standard 20 amp Rotax alternator. Even if I lose the HX or the main battery I still  have the Tru-Trax  to keep wings level and to get heading. The steam gauges give me altitude, speed and  climb/descend rate. And in extremis the Foreflight gives me an additional backup. 

  

I do have a spare handheld ratio with its own antenna with a connection to the secondary battery if I lose the Garmin. It is not tied into the intercom system so I have to plug it into my headset if I want to use it.  

  

After getting the system up and running I have had no problems keeping the heat down behind the panel. I did originally have panel heat problems when doing my flying off time in Florida in the summer – outside temps at altitude above 95  degrees F. 

  

Good luck. I think the work necessary to make the panel removable is worth it. I would also recommend making the connections to the engine easy to disconnect so you don’t have to cut anything when the engine needs to be removed.  

  

The system works great and the Europa is great IFR platform, except I could occasionally use another radio – but no room. Just takes some planning. 

  

  

Gary Leinberger

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bobhitchcock(at)icloud.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:06 am Post subject: Avionics Heat

Hi Gary

Your description and picture was very helpful. From your picture I presume you have used the LONESTAR CYCLONE - 21 COOLING FAN. My Europa mono  XS has been flying for some sixteen years now and I have owned her for eight years. The panel has built in inspection points already, and is also moveable, so hopefully access should not be a issue. 

I am not the original builder, but do fly regularly with him. Great knowledge source and buddy. (He spends half his time in the UK, and like you winters in Florida). Half a dozen differing solutions to the problem set. This forum is an outstanding knowledge resource.

Many thanks for your suggestions.

Regards

Bob



On 21 Apr 2016, at 22:58, 

 	  Quote: 	
		        <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->    

In the attached picture you can see my panel. I (with the terrific help of Bud Yerly of Custom Flight) made the panel easily removable â€“ takes about 10 minutes to remove the entire panel. This has paid off some many times, and makes doing  IFR 2 year checks very easy if the inspector wants to check everything.  

  

My plane is IFR with a Garmin 430W, a 330 GTX Mode S transponder, a Grand Rapids HX, an engine monitor, a Tru-Trax 2 axis autopilot, and several steam gauges. Yes, it all fits but it is tight. And it is heavy - 42 lbs. for the panel. And  it produces a great deal of heat. So we put in a three hose fan drawing air from the passenger foot well, and two exhaust fans â€“ original two inch (as shown) but now one is a 4 inch fan. The top fans are on a thermostat and a timer, running off the secondary  battery. When I land, if the temps are up in the panel, the fan goes on for about 45 minutes.  

  

The three hoses from the fan go to the HX, 430W, and the EXP buss box (on the right side of picture with all the plugs over top of it). The box was made to improve cooling and keep stray wires or dropped tools from causing shorts in the  EXP buss). The two hoses  - to the Garmin and to the HX are not in the picture.   

  

The secondary battery also runs the radio and trim and autopilot through a â€œsoaringâ€ buss for use when the engine is off for soaring (I have the glider wings also), and can be used for clearance delivery on the ground so you donâ€™t have  to run the engine (and possibly overheat) or wear the main battery down when getting your clearance. I do have the top mounted, belt driven 45 amp alternator as well as the standard 20 amp Rotax alternator. Even if I lose the HX or the main battery I still  have the Tru-Trax  to keep wings level and to get heading. The steam gauges give me altitude, speed and  climb/descend rate. And in extremis the Foreflight gives me an additional backup. 

  

I do have a spare handheld ratio with its own antenna with a connection to the secondary battery if I lose the Garmin. It is not tied into the intercom system so I have to plug it into my headset if I want to use it.  

  

After getting the system up and running I have had no problems keeping the heat down behind the panel. I did originally have panel heat problems when doing my flying off time in Florida in the summer â€“ outside temps at altitude above 95  degrees F. 

  

Good luck. I think the work necessary to make the panel removable is worth it. I would also recommend making the connections to the engine easy to disconnect so you donâ€™t have to cut anything when the engine needs to be removed.  

  

The system works great and the Europa is great IFR platform, except I could occasionally use another radio â€“ but no room. Just takes some planning. 

  

I am going to try to put this on the Matronic site, but I normally donâ€™t have very good luck with that.  

  



 

  

   <panel_labels.jpg>

JohnFrance

Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Posts: 78
Location: Grenoble France

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:07 am Post subject: Avionics heat

I have a very simple instrument panel in my aircraft but was conscious  that there is not a lot of room behind the panel and it gets heat from  the engine and the sun beating down on it.

 I recently changed the radio and transponder to the Trig TY91 and TT21  and put the "hardware" boxes in the back behind the D panel. This frees  up a lot of space in the panel for air circulation and moves the heat  source elsewhere. I think there are other manufacturers offering split  systems as well but I am happy with the Trigs performance.

 

 John

_________________
Europa mono Nr 192

iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:25 am Post subject: Avionics heat

Hi Gary,

            I am the owner of the fist Europa Motor Glider flying in the UK and am in the unbelievable position of still trying to get a valid Permit to Fly, so far it has taken about 7 years!  (We don’t have an experimental category here. Yet).  The present problem is trying to get an increase in maximum all up mass from 1370 to 1470 lbs. Noting the equipment you have in your machine I wonder if you could tell me what mass you operate your machine at, and if you are aware of any handling issues at high masses? Do you operate with a restricted C of G range and or restricted VNe? We am currently limited by the LAA to 127 knots VNe, C of G limits between 58” and 62.5”but the reasons for this seem to have been unspecified or lost in the mists of time. The current empty mass of my machine is 989 lbs at a C of G 60”.

 

If you prefer to come back off line my e-mail is iancook_1(at)hotmail.com (iancook_1(at)hotmail.com). 

 

Look forward to hearing from yourself and very interested in any operating issue advice that you can offer to help justify the current work going on in the UK.

 

Best Regards

 

Ian Cook 

 

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Leinberger 

Sent: 21 April 2016 23:06

To: 'europa-list(at)matronics.com' <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Avionics heat

 

In the attached picture you can see my panel. I (with the terrific help of Bud Yerly of Custom Flight) made the panel easily removable – takes about 10 minutes to remove the entire panel. This has paid off some many times, and makes doing IFR 2 year checks very easy if the inspector wants to check everything. 

 

My plane is IFR with a Garmin 430W, a 330 GTX Mode S transponder, a Grand Rapids HX, an engine monitor, a Tru-Trax 2 axis autopilot, and several steam gauges. Yes, it all fits but it is tight. And it is heavy - 42 lbs. for the panel. And it produces a great deal of heat. So we put in a three hose fan drawing air from the passenger foot well, and two exhaust fans – original two inch (as shown) but now one is a 4 inch fan. The top fans are on a thermostat and a timer, running off the secondary battery. When I land, if the temps are up in the panel, the fan goes on for about 45 minutes. 

 

The three hoses from the fan go to the HX, 430W, and the EXP buss box (on the right side of picture with all the plugs over top of it). The box was made to improve cooling and keep stray wires or dropped tools from causing shorts in the EXP buss). The two hoses  - to the Garmin and to the HX are not in the picture. 

 

The secondary battery also runs the radio and trim and autopilot through a “soaring” buss for use when the engine is off for soaring (I have the glider wings also), and can be used for clearance delivery on the ground so you don’t have to run the engine (and possibly overheat) or wear the main battery down when getting your clearance. I do have the top mounted, belt driven 45 amp alternator as well as the standard 20 amp Rotax alternator. Even if I lose the HX or the main battery I still have the Tru-Trax  to keep wings level and to get heading. The steam gauges give me altitude, speed and  climb/descend rate. And in extremis the Foreflight gives me an additional backup.

 

I do have a spare handheld ratio with its own antenna with a connection to the secondary battery if I lose the Garmin. It is not tied into the intercom system so I have to plug it into my headset if I want to use it. 

 

After getting the system up and running I have had no problems keeping the heat down behind the panel. I did originally have panel heat problems when doing my flying off time in Florida in the summer – outside temps at altitude above 95 degrees F.

 

Good luck. I think the work necessary to make the panel removable is worth it. I would also recommend making the connections to the engine easy to disconnect so you don’t have to cut anything when the engine needs to be removed. 

 

The system works great and the Europa is great IFR platform, except I could occasionally use another radio – but no room. Just takes some planning.

 

 

Gary Leinberger

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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:54 am Post subject: Avionics heat

Hi John.

This is my configuration also and you are correct in that it frees up a lot of space in the panel, I am also happy with the Trig's performance, as a bonus it moves the transmitters much closer to the aerials

tim 	  Quote: 	
		  On 22 April 2016 at 10:06 John Archer <77alembert(at)gmail.com> wrote:

I have a very simple instrument panel in my aircraft but was conscious that there is not a lot of room behind the panel and it gets heat from the engine and the sun beating down on it.

 I recently changed the radio and transponder to the Trig TY91 and TT21 and put the "hardware" boxes in the back behind the D panel. This frees up a lot of space in the panel for air circulation and moves the heat source elsewhere. I think there are other manufacturers offering split systems as well but I am happy with the Trigs performance.

 

 John

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:05 am Post subject: Avionics heat

I am also very impressed with my trig set. Extremely durable putting up with vibration in my little Hummel that slowly kills many of my other instruments.

Cheers,

Pete



On Apr 22, 2016, at 5:53 AM, houlihan tim <houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk (houlihan(at)blueyonder.co.uk)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		           

Hi John.

This is my configuration also and you are correct in that it frees up a lot of space in the panel, I am also happy with the Trig's performance, as a bonus it moves the transmitters much closer to the aerials

tim 	  Quote: 	
		  On 22 April 2016 at 10:06 John Archer <77alembert(at)gmail.com (77alembert(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

I have a very simple instrument panel in my aircraft but was conscious that there is not a lot of room behind the panel and it gets heat from the engine and the sun beating down on it.

 I recently changed the radio and transponder to the Trig TY91 and TT21 and put the "hardware" boxes in the back behind the D panel. This frees up a lot of space in the panel for air circulation and moves the heat source elsewhere. I think there are other manufacturers offering split systems as well but I am happy with the Trigs performance.

 

 John

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