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graeme bird
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434
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 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:02 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made me think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though, especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
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_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk |
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:04 pm Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
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iancook_1(at)hotmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:04 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Graeme,
Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
Regards
Ian Cook
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Spin characteristics
I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http:sp; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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pete(at)lawless.info
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:20 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Graeme
Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence of of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to but is was considerable.
Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format?
Pete
G-RMAC #109
On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
| Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Graeme,
Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
Regards
Ian Cook
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Spin characteristics
I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird <[url=mailto:graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk]graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)[/url]> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" <[url=mailto:graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk]graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)[/url]>
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[url=http:sp]http:sp[/url]; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
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JonSmith
Joined: 21 May 2010
Posts: 110
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pete(at)lawless.info
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:13 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Thanks Jon
I think I still have the original video in the loft but nothing to play
it with.
Pete
On 12/04/16 09:43, JonSmith wrote:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Youtube 
http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
Cheers,
Pete a239
On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:
| Quote: | Graeme
Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence of of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to but is was considerable.
Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format?
Pete
G-RMAC #109
On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
| Quote: | <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Graeme,
Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
Regards
Ian Cook
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Spin characteristics
I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird < (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" < (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)>
I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted.
I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze.
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution
[url=http:sp]http:sp[/url]; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
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grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:53 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Think it was 12 turns then did a normal recoverywhich took another 1 1/2 turns. He also demonstrated that letting go of the stick also recovered fronm the spin, that took 2 turns.
All dredged from the fuzzy depths of my brain btw
Graham
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016, 10:22, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
Youtube
http://youtu.be/2W4foTmO6SY
Cheers,
Pete a239
On Apr 12, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Pete Lawless <pete(at)lawless.info (pete(at)lawless.info)> wrote:
Graeme Way back when there was a Europa video which included a cockpit sequence of of Pete Clark spinning a Europa. I forget the number of turns he got to but is was considerable. Anyone know if that video is still about in a usable format? Pete G-RMAC #109 On 12/04/16 09:02, Ian Cook wrote:
#yiv2557877359 #yiv2557877359 -- _filtered #yiv2557877359 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv2557877359 #yiv2557877359 p.yiv2557877359MsoNormal, #yiv2557877359 li.yiv2557877359MsoNormal, #yiv2557877359 div.yiv2557877359MsoNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv2557877359 a:link, #yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557877359MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2557877359 a:visited, #yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557877359MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2557877359 p.yiv2557877359msonormal0, #yiv2557877359 li.yiv2557877359msonormal0, #yiv2557877359 div.yiv2557877359msonormal0 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv2557877359 span.yiv2557877359EmailStyle18 {color:windowtext;} #yiv2557877359 .yiv2557877359MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2557877359 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;} #yiv2557877359 div.yiv2557877359WordSection1 {} #yiv2557877359 Graeme,
Having done 80 odd spins with the Europa MG the main thing is that the machine goes very near the vertical and picks up speed quickly on recovery, do not overdo the stick forward or you will go inverted with all the problems that brings. Definitely do not have any loose article in the cockpit! I believe the standard Europa XS has similar behaviour e.g. the same powerful tailplane clean aerodynamics etc.
Regards
Ian Cook
[url=] [/url]
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON Sent: 11 April 2016 20:58 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com) Subject: Re: Spin characteristics
I have spun several early Classic Europas, during test flying for Permit to Fly. The Classic can bite, clean the spin may be relatively benign but several had a vicious wing drop flaps down.Imho it may be due to inaccuracy of the leading edge of the wing which is critical on Don's excellent airfoil.
We were not given accurate coordinates for the section with the plans but later on they did become available. Sanding the wings to + or - .010"
over the first 12" of chord does give a much more benign stall.
Fitting the now mandatory stall strips also tames the stall.
Graham
On Monday, 11 April 2016, 20:06, graeme bird < (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> wrote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "graeme bird" < (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk (graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk)> I've decided to get some aerobatic training just for fun and so have been reading the Kershner basic aerobatic manual. The section on spinning talks about the characteristics of some planes to go flat and recovery being dependent on various hard to predict factors; altitude/pressure as well as plane design. Does anyone spin the mono outside of UK and have any comment. While searching for info, I have seen one or two accounts on here of accidental incipient spin. They have made we think I should make sure my payload (e.g for permit flight test) is better secured than dumped on the seat if a wing drop could send me inverted. I was busy fitting my Smart Ass 3 at the strip the other day when my hangar neighbour remarked that he dropped a wing and rolled out of the circuit on base leg in a Brezzer after a 6 hour flight to an unfamiliar strip - lucky to survive I should think. Easy to do though especially if you are turning across a stiff breeze. -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454844#454844http://www.matronics.com/contribution [url=]http:sp[/url]; -Matt Dralle, List Adm========
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:16 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
Was it just the CAA saying no?
Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?😄
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
Tri gear 912uls
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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rowlandcarson(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:59 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
Was it just the CAA saying no?
Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?😄
|
Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and “there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb)”.
I’ve always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php
| Europa #435 G-RODO in build
| LAA #016532
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cakeykev(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Rowland
Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic aerobatics.
Kevin
| Quote: | On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
>
> Was it just the CAA saying no?
>
> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?😄
Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and “there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb)”.
I’ve always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php
| Europa #435 G-RODO in build
| LAA #016532
|
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:16 am Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Kevin, There is of course very little to stop you doing aerobatics in the privacy of your own back yard! The original stress testing of the structure suggested ample reserve strength. However two points worth mentioning:
1. The vagaries of amateur/non certified composite work led the PFA/LAA to include a number of safety factors (just in case you didn't get it absolutely right) which took it out of normal aerobatic range. The wisdom of this approach was demonstrated when William Mills' plane broke up in mid air whilst (probably) pulling out from his VNE MAUW dive, most likely pulling fewer g than you might experience in many aerobatic manoeuvres. AAIB probable cause - the plates that the front lift pin screw into had been poorly located in the (Classic) wing.
2. Although no bar to loops, Rotax engines do not like being more than 45 degrees from upright.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2016-04-12 16:35, Kevin Challis wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com (cakeykev(at)gmail.com)>
Rowland
Thank you for that information. I agree it would be nice to be able to do basic aerobatics.
KevinOn 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> wrote: --> Europa-List message posted by: Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> | Quote: | | On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com (cakeykev(at)gmail.com)> wrote: Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk? Was it just the CAA saying no? Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?😄 |
Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and "there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb)". I've always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com (rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com)> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php | Europa #435 G-RODO in build | LAA #016532
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dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Rowland,
In 2000/2001 I did try to get my aircraft approved for aerobatics with the then PFA and I am reproducing their response here.
"Unfortunately, clearing and aircraft for aerobatics involves much more than a simple mathematical equation. For example, if the aeroplane is flown to +6g at 1050 lbs gross weight rather than 4g at 1370 lbs gross weight, while the wing and tail loads will be approximately similar, the inertial loads imposed on the aeroplane by items of mass (engine, pilot, battery, etc) will be 50% greater. It will be worse than embarrassing if the engine were to fall out part way through a loop."
The response also went on to point out that the application would require a full independent design report at the new proposed loading.
Dave Watts
G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 2,200 hrs.
| Quote: | On 12 Apr 2016, at 15:58, Rowland Carson <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2016-04-12, at 12:16, Kevin Challis <cakeykev(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why can't the Europa fly aerobatics in the uk?
>
> Was it just the CAA saying no?
>
> Sorry for the stupid question but I was just wondering what was different about the UK's air is it less thick than the air in the rest of the world?😄
Kevin - at the Europa Club seminar held at Leicester on 2 & 3 May 1998, Francis Donaldson was one of the speakers. The focus of his presentation was the mod to allow 1370lb gross weight. However, as an aside he said that to pass the time on the train to the event, he had done some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations and “there is potential for aerobatic clearance at reduced max gross weight (eg 1050 lb)”.
I’ve always thought it would be nice if someone could pursue that and get a precedent for Europas to do simple aerobatics (eg roll & loop) in UK jurisdiction.
in friendship
Rowland
| Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...
| <rowlandcarson(at)gmail.com> http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk/aviation/europa_435/index.php
| Europa #435 G-RODO in build
| LAA #016532
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graeme bird
Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Spin characteristics |
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I spent a couple of hours at EGBT in their slingsby T67 -160 , remarkably similar to the Europa in some ways. I flew stalls, spins, wing overs, aileron rolls and loops. Never really departed from straight and level before apart from the odd recovery from an unusual attitude. Really enjoyed it, not queasy at all. Further session booked. Its going to be oh so tempting though when back in the Europa. I am sure the loop was only a couple of G
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_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: Spin characteristics |
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Graeme,
Be careful with that stuff! It can be quite habit forming. Even addictive! Next thing you know you’ll be building a Little Toot Sport Biplane.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger(at)mac.com
On Apr 21, 2016, at 2:44 PM, graeme bird <graeme(at)gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
I spent a couple of hours at EGBT in their slingsby T67 -160 , remarkably similar to the Europa in some ways. I flew stalls, spins, wing overs, aileron rolls and loops. Never really departed from straight and level before apart from the odd recovery from an unusual attitude. Really enjoyed it, not queasy at all. Further session booked. Its going to be oh so tempting though when back in the Europa. I am sure the loop was only a couple of G
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY
Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S/Woodcomp 3000/3W
Newby: 200 hours 4 years on the Mono
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
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