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[Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

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cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Chris,



In my opinion, your post is spot on all the way up to the last very

un-necessary condescending line.



I'm not sure how long you've been on this List but if you have been for any

length of time, you would know that Mark (Bitterlich) is another old (as in

Long) timer on this List with pretty much great experience and knowledge of

our aircraft and related systems.  He is not the only one, there are others

on this list with great knowledge and experience as well.   From what I can

surmise, Mark's life experience as an Engineer tends to "make" him very

scientific and factual in his posts.  I can assure you that very rarely he

expresses an unfounded opinion/fact.  He doesn't know "everything" as in

this case of a 13 years old spark plug, but I'd listen and learn from his

experience - after nearly 20 years, I still do...

JB is no amateur either and also with a lot of experience - that is why I

value the exchange between them - and feel that it definitely belongs on

this List



It's also clear to me that both have been trying hard not to slip off and go

personal in their posts and I think this is important.  



I own and fly an M-14 powered CJ-6 since 1997 and the exchange between mark

and JB is very interesting to me.  I  recently did the Auto Conversion and

am too very happy with it.  I decided to do it after 3 of my Russian

ignition wires have started to cross-arc inside the shield-tube.   Shortly

after the conversion I did have an issue with a Magneto coil failure and I

realized that this problem was caused due to my own failure to check and

adjust the spark plug gaps before installing them (were almost 3 times the

gap recommended).



FWIW,



Sam Sax

Miami, FL



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:56 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

No problem.  Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this.  Please, go right ahead.  Copy and paste.  



 

________________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton(at)gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues






I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install on my Yak 52 in the future.



May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some people are having issues while others are not.



For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.  They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet the results are different.



Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on one mag only.  He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.



Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!



Chris





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:02 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

okay you win the argument. And now what?

On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 No problem.  Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this.  Please, go right ahead.  Copy and paste.  

 

 

 ________________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton(at)gmail.com]

 Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

 

 

 

 I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install on my Yak 52 in the future.

 

 May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some people are having issues while others are not.

 

 For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.  They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet the results are different.

 

 Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on one mag only.  He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.

 

 Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!

 

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599

_________________
Dawg

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:28 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Actually, I was wrong to say a single word.  I apologize.  I am having some personal issues right now and am sorry to have caused any kind of issue(s).   



Best Regards and carry on, 



Mark Bitterlich



________________________________________

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:02 PM

To: Yaklist

Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues






okay you win the argument. And now what?

On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 No problem.  Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this.  Please, go right ahead.  Copy and paste.

 ________________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton(at)gmail.com]

 Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues



 



 I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install on my Yak 52 in the future.



 May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some people are having issues while others are not.



 For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.  They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet the results are different.



 Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on one mag only.  He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.



 Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!



 Chris





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:24 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Accepted.

On Apr 28, 2016, at 21:10, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 

 

 Actually, I was wrong to say a single word.  I apologize.  I am having some personal issues right now and am sorry to have caused any kind of issue(s).   

 

 Best Regards and carry on, 

 

 Mark Bitterlich

 

 

 

 ________________________________________

 From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Bill Geipel [l129bs(at)gmail.com]

 Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:02 PM

 To: Yaklist

 Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

 

 

 

 okay you win the argument. And now what?

 

 

 On Apr 28, 2016, at 20:34, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:

 

> 

> 

> No problem.  Bill Geipel why don't you take care of this.  Please, go right ahead.  Copy and paste.

> 

> 

> ________________________________________

> From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] on behalf of Looigi [cdoburton(at)gmail.com]

> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:42 PM

> To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

> 

> 

> 

> I have been reading this topic with much interest as this is a kit I want to install on my Yak 52 in the future.

> 

> May I make the polite suggestion that rather trying to see whose spark plug is the longest we use this forum as an opportunity to try and figure out why some people are having issues while others are not.

> 

> For example, one of the guys at a local field is having radio interference problems on one mag after installing one a wiring harness kit while Rico is not.  They are both running the original radios, and seemingly the same setup and yet the results are different.

> 

> Also added to the mix that, in the case of my friends plane, the problem is on one mag only.  He has changed the mag for a known good one, no change.

> 

> Come on guys, let's move out of the playground into the classroom!

> 

> Chris

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455599#455599

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

_________________
Dawg

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 3:57 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

The automotive conversion kit was designed to eliminate the problems inherent with aging wiring harnesses.  Not the spark plugs, as I explained previously.  However, when we do replace the wiring harness with the high tech wires, we get to use automotive spark plugs which gives us an enormous number of options, including heat ranges.  The Russian and Chinese spark plugs are a "cold" plug.  All you have to do is look at the plug when it is removed and you can see that it is a cold plug. 



One of the benefits of the automotive spark plug is flexibility, to include heat ranges.  If you understand how to "read" what a spark plug is showing when it is removed, you will see by looking at the insulator that the automotive spark plugs are burning the air/fuel charge much more efficiently.  More efficient combustion allows the engine to develop more power, which many have reported after installing the conversion.  This may help.

https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug



Here's another good one.  Look at photo #7 which looks a lot like what the Russian and Chinese plugs look like when removed.  Then read the description.

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/reading-spark-plug-color.html 



Dennis



       From: Lancer <lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 6:47 AM

 Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

  

 

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lancer" <lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au (lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au)>



Obviously there are some of you not getting good plug life. I can't comment on the M14P as my experience has only been with the HS6-A and the factory Chinese plugs.



The aircraft I referred to has been regularly flown over the 13 years that I have been flying it and it has been flown by a number of different pilots and conducting Adventure Flights up until recently when I purchased it. In the 13 years it has seen 2 engines which had their own plugs so the plugs have not had any more than 600hrs on them but were still serviceable upon the engine removal. I asked our full time engineer if he had ever replaced a plug in his time servicing the aircraft and he had only ever cleaned and replaced them.



Each service the plugs were removed, bead blasted clean, pressure tested and refitted to the engine. Over the years I have had to remove the odd bottom plug as it was fouled but after a clean and test was replaced and worked fine.



A friend recently purchased a CJ and it had the Mo Plug conversion and I couldn't see the point after my experience with my aircraft. He also owns another CJ which is running std plugs and bought a set of spare plugs for it not long after he bought the aircraft and has not needed to use them after 2 1/2 years flying.



I don't know if the Russian plugs are not as reliable as the Japanese plugs but I'd be surprised if there was any real difference as they both share a lot of common technology.



Those who have had plug problems, Have you been blasting and pressure testing the plugs when servicing the engine or have you been cleaning them some other way or not cleaning them at all??



I couldn't agree more about binning dropped plugs.....If you drop it you then drop it in the bin!!



Regards,



Lance



--------

You can run but you can't hide





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/v//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronp;                     &nhttp://========================

Lancer

Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 30
Location: Cairns, Australia

Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

 	  dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote: 	
		  The automotive conversion kit was designed to eliminate the problems inherent with aging wiring harnesses.ï¿½ Not the spark plugs, as I explained previously.  However, when we do replace the wiring harness with the high tech wires, we get to use automotive spark plugs which gives us an enormous number of options, including heat ranges.  The Russian and Chinese spark plugs are a "cold" plug.ï¿½ All you have to do is look at the plug when it is removed and you can see that it is a cold plug. 



One of the benefits of the automotive spark plug is flexibility, to include heat ranges.  If you understand how to "read" what a spark plug is showing when it is removed, you will see by looking at the insulator that the automotive spark plugs are burning the air/fuel charge much more efficiently.  More efficient combustion allows the engine to develop more power, which many have reported after installing the conversion.  This may help.

https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug



Here's another good one.  Look at photo #7 which looks a lot like what the Russian and Chinese plugs look like when removed.ï¿½ Then read the description.

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/reading-spark-plug-color.html 



Dennis



	




Hi Dennis,



Thanks for the reply and for pointing out the reasoning behind the modification, but wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to simply replace the offending wiring and if there was a plug or two which was causing trouble to simply replace the failed components rather than the whole system.....



I understand the advantage of having access to different heat range plugs but when I pull the top plugs they come out looking great providing the engine doesn't sit idling too long in full rich (my aircraft is located 1560' AMSL)



The bottom plugs living in a nice oily cylinder always suffer more than the dry plugs located at the top but are easily cleaned and put back into reliable service if and when needed.



Regards,



Lance

_________________
You can run but you can't hide

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Have you ever tried pulling a wire through that wire loom?  The only way to do it is to connect the old wire to the new wire. THEN pray they don't come apart inside the ring. Then  when another wire goes bad, you go through the same process again.  If you ever experience the problem, I think you just may consider doing the conversion. 

There are just too many benefits to not simply replace the entire wiring harness. 

I won't dispute what you're seeing on your plugs. 

Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

 	  Quote: 	
		   On May 2, 2016, at 4:53 PM, Lancer <lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au> wrote:

 dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:

> The automotive conversion kit was designed to eliminate the problems inherent with aging wiring harnesses.ï¿½ Not the spark plugs, as I explained previously.  However, when we do replace the wiring harness with the high tech wires, we get to use automotive spark plugs which gives us an enormous number of options, including heat ranges.  The Russian and Chinese spark plugs are a "cold" plug.ï¿½ All you have to do is look at the plug when it is removed and you can see that it is a cold plug. 

> 

> 

> 

> One of the benefits of the automotive spark plug is flexibility, to include heat ranges.  If you understand how to "read" what a spark plug is showing when it is removed, you will see by looking at the insulator that the automotive spark plugs are burning the air/fuel charge much more efficiently.  More efficient combustion allows the engine to develop more power, which many have reported after installing the conversion.  This may help.

> https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug (https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/faqs/spark-plug-faqs/how-do-i-read-a-spark-plug)

> 

> 

> 

> Here's another good one.  Look at photo #7 which looks a lot like what the Russian and Chinese plugs look like when removed.ï¿½ Then read the description.

> http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/reading-spark-plug-color.html (http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/reading-spark-plug-color.html) 

> 

> 

> 

> Dennis

 Hi Dennis,

 Thanks for the reply and for pointing out the reasoning behind the modification, but wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to simply replace the offending wiring and if there was a plug or two which was causing trouble to simply replace the failed components rather than the whole system.....

 I understand the advantage of having access to different heat range plugs but when I pull the top plugs they come out looking great providing the engine doesn't sit idling too long in full rich (my aircraft is located 1560' AMSL)

 The bottom plugs living in a nice oily cylinder always suffer more than the dry plugs located at the top but are easily cleaned and put back into reliable service if and when needed.

 Regards,

 Lance

 --------

 You can run but you can't hide

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455770#455770

GeorgeCoy

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 10:19 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Dennis forgot to mention that the original Russian black rubber insulated wire is difficult to find and usually the rubber is old and not worth doing. The main source for a silicone insulated 5mm wire that we were supplying as a replacement for years stopped making it several years ago.

This is on top of the difficulty installing it he mentioned. For the last several years, the Motorstar factory only supplies engines with Dennis's ignition system. It has been accepted by most airworthiness authorities including Russia.



George Coy

MotorstarNA

714 Airport Rd.

Swanton VT 05488

802-868-5633 off

802-363-5782 cell

802-868-6632 Fax

george.coy(at)gmail.com

http://motorstarna.com/

SKYPE george.coy





--

Lancer

Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 30
Location: Cairns, Australia

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Thanks for the replies......



I have been using a technique for threading wires through tricky channeling for years which I am sure will work with the plug wires also



Start by sliding a piece of narrow walled heatshrink onto the wire and then twist the old wire to the new wire.  Solder the wires together so they can't pull apart, then slide the heatshrink over the join and shrink it in place which will stop the wire getting caught as you pull in the new wire with the old one.



I just ran a search for 5mm HT wire which came back with more results that I had expected.......It appears there isn't that much of a problem sourcing it....The one I have listed below is copper which is not silicone but I'm sure you'd be able to find silicone wire if you searched. It is available in pre made plug wire kits so it's out there



http://www.ebay.com/itm/5mm-Spark-Plug-WIRE-Coil-Ignition-Hypalon-Cover-Copper-Core-SOLD-PER-FOOT-/140786539797



Regards,



Lance

_________________
You can run but you can't hide

Last edited by Lancer on Tue May 03, 2016 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue May 03, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

The reference to silicone is for the center core (copper or whatever) shielding, not the wire.  ie: Silicone cover instead of rubber like the original wires are/were depending on your frame of reference.

Dennis

       From: Lancer <lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au>

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 6:54 PM

 Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Lancer" <lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au (lrob4783(at)bigpond.net.au)>

Thanks for the replies......

I have been using a technique for threading wires through tricky channeling for years which I am sure will work with the plug wires also

Start by sliding a piece of narrow walled heatshrink onto the wire and then twist the old wire to the new wire.  Solder the wires together so they can't pull apart, then slide the heatshrink over the join and shrink it in place which will stop the wire getting caught as you pull it new wire in with the old one.

I just ran a search for 5mm HT wire which came back with more results that I had expected.......It appears there isn't that much of a problem sourcing it....It's copper which is not silicone but I'm sure you'd be able to find silicone if you searched. It is available in pre made plug wire kits so it's out there

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5mm-Spark-Plug-WIRE-Coil-Ignition-Hypalon-Cover-Copper-Core-SOLD-PER-FOOT-/140786539797

Regards,

Lance

--------

You can run but you can't hide

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455842#455842

http://wiki.matronics.com<br                -Matt Dralle, List =========

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: Auto wiring issues

Hypalon is a very good synthetic rubber.  



Silicone has better high temperature characteristics and is better suited for this particular application.   



  http://www.enarubber.com/pdf/material-selection-guide.pdf



I might also add that since you have never done this before Lance, you may not be aware that there is a significant  amount of pulling force required to get the new wire through.  Since the wire you are examining has a stranded copper core with  Hypalon insulation, when you pull on it the Hypalon will stretch as well as the copper core.  Copper being relatively soft is likely to stretch and move within the core jacket.  One of the "other" issues when replacing plug wires in this contained loom that must be considered when selecting non-standard materials.  



Your method using heat shrink /twisting/soldering (etc.) have been tried along with many other methods.  All have merit, and it all depends on which wire you are replacing as to how hard it becomes to do.  My personal favorite is to attach steel safety wire to the wire coming out, and then using this to pull in the new wire.  The biggest downside to that method is that it can cut through other spark plug wires in there (easily) without you being aware of it.   This actually happens more than a little bit, no matter what kind of new wire you are pulling through.  The original wire insulation will tend to crack, exposing the center conductor as you pull the new "whatever" through the loom.  So you end up fixing one engine miss, and creating another.  So in some cases it is best just to bite the bullet and plan on replacing them all.   Don't forget that you are also going to need to assemble 18 new ends to go onto these new wires to screw onto the Russian plugs as well.  Good luck, take pictures and notes and post your experiences to the Yak-List when you have finished.  



Mark



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