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Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 8:57 pm Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

Joe,  

This is really valuable information.Â  Sounds like you know your stuff so if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain 

I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon ADDB receiver for traffic.  

The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard.Â  If I installed it like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down from the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose cone of the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the bottom of the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that section of the airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some kind of chromate based material then my question is would the antenna be able to still receive the ground-based signals? 

To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and it is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I purchase an additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or should I just run with the dynon unit? 

Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful!  

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!!  

Bill Hunter 

  On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the existing transponder antenna?Â  Since the original transponder worked OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical in real life.

 Â  The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only.Â  It will not affect the operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer.Â  Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna.

 Â  The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090.Â  If you are out of range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other SkyView transponders.Â  Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:25 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

I think you are confusing yourself with too much information. What you 

have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 

1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder 

antenna. Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs 

the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere 

that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna.

Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that 

does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It 

is only able to display information received by your transponder or 

ADS-B In unit.

I have the same equipment in my RV-10. My transponder antenna is a short 

distance behind the firewall on the belly. My ADS-B receiver antenna is 

on the belly in the tailcone. I realize with a canard, your convenient 

locations are different...just get the distance you need. Under the 

Canard should be fine, if you can get the distance and easy mounting.



On 5/22/2016 9:56 PM, William Hunter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Joe,



 This is really valuable information.  Sounds like you know your stuff so

 if I could kindly pick a bit more of your brain



 I am running the SV-XPNDR-260 and it is supposed to be the

 higher-powered transponder that dynon offers I'm running the dynon ADDB

 receiver for traffic.



 The ideal location for convenience of installation would be to install

 the monopole antenna directly underneath the Canard.  If I installed it

 like I am thinking then the monopole antenna would be sticking down from

 the Cunard and since the Canard is mounted up high in the nose cone of

 the airplane the antenna would not be sticking out below the bottom of

 the airplane assuming there's no carbon graphite in that section of the

 airplane and assuming there's no paint that has some kind of chromate

 based material then my question is would the antenna be able to still

 receive the ground-based signals?



 To add to my confusion I will also be running a Garmin gtn - 650 and it

 is supposed to be able to receive ADS-B signals. . Should I purchase an

 additional monopole antenna for that unit as well or should I just run

 with the dynon unit?



 Subject is way out of my league so any help from you or some of the

 other sharp guys on this forum would be greatly helpful!



 THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP!!!



 Bill Hunter



 On May 22, 2016 6:30 PM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com

 <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>> wrote:



     

     <fransew(at)gmail.com <mailto:fransew(at)gmail.com>>



     Assuming that you are installing the SV-XPNDR-261, why not use the

     existing transponder antenna?  Since the original transponder worked

     OK with that egg shaped ground plane, that reinforces my post that

     shape and size makes a theoretical difference, but is not critical

     in real life.

       The SV-ADSB-470 antenna is receive only.  It will not affect the

     operation of ADAHRS or Magnetometer.  Keep the ADSB-470 antenna away

     from other transmitting antennas, especially the transponder antenna.

       The SV-ADSB-470 receives 978 only, not 1090.  If you are out of

     range of an ADS-B ground station (maybe in a traffic pattern), you

     will not see traffic transmitting ADS-B out on 1090, i.e., other

     SkyView transponders.  Dynon needs to offer a dual band ADS-B receiver.



     --------

     Joe Gores





     Read this topic online here:



     http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456477#456477



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_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

billhuntersemail(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:38 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

THANKS Kelly!!!



 	  Quote: 	
		   What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna. 


	


Yes.  My existing monopole antenna is attached to the "corner" (edge) of the existing egg shaped ground plane.  I really want to get this ground plane issue squared away (sorry could not resist).  



My question is what is the best size and shape for this transponder monopole antenna? The Dynon manuals says 120 MM X 120 MM is minimum and 700 MM X 700 MM is best but way too big for my airplane.  Then it says intervals of wave length distance "should be avoided" however what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna.


	


Yes.  Reading the Dynon manual it says to make sure there is a ground plane 



Same question as above... What are the intervals that the ADSB ground plane should be?

130 MM X 130 MM is minimum and their best size is 780 MM X 780 MM but that is too big for my airplane...and intermediate steps are bad so what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit.


	


Good call Kelly...I did not gather that fine point.



THANKS AGAIN!!!!

.



Cheers!!!



Bill  Hunter

--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 6:47 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

Go with the minimum disk on the receiving antenna and leave the existing 

alone, it probably is working and has been tested. If my metric 

calculator and decimal point placer are working today, that would be 

about a 5" diam alum foil disk. Given the antenna length, probably 

double what is actually needed.

On 5/23/2016 7:35 AM, William Hunter wrote:

[quote] 

 THANKS Kelly!!!

> What you have is the Dynon(Trig) SV-261 transponder, which is the Out unit on 1090-ES. This should be connected to your existing monopole transponder antenna.

 Yes.  My existing monopole antenna is attached to the "corner" (edge) of the existing egg shaped ground plane.  I really want to get this ground plane issue squared away (sorry could not resist).

 My question is what is the best size and shape for this transponder monopole antenna? The Dynon manuals says 120 MM X 120 MM is minimum and 700 MM X 700 MM is best but way too big for my airplane.  Then it says intervals of wave length distance "should be avoided" however what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided?

> Then you have the SV-470 ADS-B Receiver or In unit. It needs the same variety antenna, but not a ground plane, and can be anywhere that is at least 2 ft away from your existing transponder antenna.

 Yes.  Reading the Dynon manual it says to make sure there is a ground plane

 Same question as above... What are the intervals that the ADSB ground plane should be?

 130 MM X 130 MM is minimum and their best size is 780 MM X 780 MM but that is too big for my airplane...and intermediate steps are bad so what are the intermediate steps that are best and what should be avoided?

> Do not get confused about the GTN-650. It is a GPS/Nav/Com unit that does NOT receive any ADS-B or other traffic information on its own. It is only able to display information received by your transponder or ADS-B In unit.

 Good call Kelly...I did not gather that fine point.

 THANKS AGAIN!!!!

 ..

 Cheers!!!

 Bill  Hunter

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 7:10 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

Well, to some degree that is what experimental is about. Your 

transponder will need to be tested on the aircraft to meet the every two 

years requirement. That will show whether the signal meets requirements 

or not. You are sending around 200-250 watts up to perhaps 100nm for 

radar sites, less for ADS-B ground receivers. Compared to your com 

transmitter of 8-10 watts.

As for your ADS-B receiver, you still want the antenna to have line of 

site view of transmitters, so you want it exposed on the belly, not up 

in a wheel well. Is there space right under the canard? Is the canard 

removable like on the Long EZ models?



On 5/23/2016 7:57 AM, William Hunter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Wow…this inherent anal retentive desire I have to “do it right the first

 time” is a real pain in the butt!!!


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   With respect to the ADS-B antenna…I would like to mount it under the

 canard essentially in the nose compartment wheel well area…do you

 suppose this would work?  What size should the aluminum ground plane

 be?  Disk or square or egg shaped?!?!

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1929
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions

I agree with Kelly.  Connect the SV-261 transponder to the existing transponder antenna.  If the previous transponder worked with that ground plane, then the new one will too.  If you insist on making a new transponder ground plane, then 120 -130 mm square or round will be fine.

  As for the ADSB-470 receiver, mount the antenna with or without a ground plane anywhere you want, inside or outside, where it is 2 or more feet away from the transponder antenna.  Like Bob said, the signal from the ground station or nearby aircraft will be so strong that a perfect receiving antenna is not required.

Both the SV-261 and the ADSB-470 are ADS-B.  One is OUT and one is IN.

Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020?

  After your plane is flying with the new system, you can go flying and then request a report from the government to see if your transponder meets 2020 requirements.  See this article:

http://macsblog.com/2015/01/the-faa-likes-my-ads-b-out-performance/

_________________
Joe Gores

billhuntersemail(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 10:01 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

Hi all, thank you so much for your help it is greatly appreciated. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020 

I did not get the dynon GPS 2020 because the Garmin has a GPS that is supposed to be 2020 compliant and it is connected to the arinc bus and that communicates all of the magic to the dynon Skyview system and that apparently makes everything legal. 
	


Thanks again for your help! 

Bill Hunter On May 23, 2016 10:47 AM, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 I agree with Kelly.Â  Connect the SV-261 transponder to the existing transponder antenna.Â  If the previous transponder worked with that ground plane, then the new one will too.Â  If you insist on making a new transponder ground plane, then 120 -130 mm square or round will be fine.

 Â  As for the ADSB-470 receiver, mount the antenna with or without a ground plane anywhere you want, inside or outside, where it is 2 or more feet away from the transponder antenna.Â  Like Bob said, the signal from the ground station or nearby aircraft will be so strong that a perfect receiving antenna is not required.

 Both the SV-261 and the ADSB-470 are ADS-B.Â  One is OUT and one is IN.

 Do you also have the SV-GPS-2020?

 Â  After your plane is flying with the new system, you can go flying and then request a report from the government to see if your transponder meets 2020 requirements.Â  See this article:

 http://macsblog.com/2015/01/the-faa-likes-my-ads-b-out-performance/

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456505#456505

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1929
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions

Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the transponder antenna.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf

He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft."

 I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched between the mounting nut and the ground plane.  The problem with compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection.

_________________
Joe Gores

yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

That "problem" might not really be much of an issue.

I have a fibreglass spinner back plate mounted under the prop bolts with 

large washers. It's a tractor installation with the back plate forward 

of the aluminum prop hub.

To my surprise the bolts do not lose torque even after several hundred 

flight hours.

Ken



On 24/05/2016 8:57 AM, user9253 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the transponder antenna.

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf

 He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft."

   I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched between the mounting nut and the ground plane.  The problem with compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection.



 --------

 Joe Gores





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456526#456526

billhuntersemail(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: Transponder and ADS Antenna Mounting Location Questions For

Thanks Joe,  

My strategy will be to mount the base of the monopo antenna directly to the ground plane sheet and then drill a hole down through the floor for the antenna to stick down through and screw the ground plane to the floor board... then just caulk around the hole.  

I shall report my progress.  

Bill Hunter 

 

Bill Hunter 

 +1 408-464-1902 On May 24, 2016 8:34 AM, "C&K" <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: C&K <yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com (yellowduckduo(at)gmail.com)>

 

 That "problem" might not really be much of an issue.

 I have a fibreglass spinner back plate mounted under the prop bolts with large washers. It's a tractor installation with the back plate forward of the aluminum prop hub.

 To my surprise the bolts do not lose torque even after several hundred flight hours.

 Ken

 

 On 24/05/2016 8:57 AM, user9253 wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Here is a link to articles written by Bob Archer, including the transponder antenna.

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Antennas/Antennas_for_Aircraft.pdf

 He says, "I would not recommend putting the ground plane on the inside with the antenna element extending through the skin of the aircraft."

 Â  I assume that means that the fiberglass should not be sandwiched between the mounting nut and the ground plane.Â  The problem with compressing any type of plastic material within an electrical terminal is that plastic will flow over time resulting in loosening of the connection.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456526#456526

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

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