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neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: Lithium Batteries |
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Lithium battery Update
My LithiumFe battery is two years old. For the second winter the battery was left in the plane with no battery maintainer or charger attached. Maintainer/chargers aren't recommended and with only a 10% per year discharge not needed. The big VW started up just fine (after almost 7 months in storage) with no charging. Later I took my balance charger out to the hanger and checked the cell voltages. They were all exactly 3.35 volts so no balancing or charging required again.
This new battery has so much reserve capacity that I have modified my start procedure. With my old 12 pound 12AH lead acid battery I would prime the engine and pull it through one engine revolution so that it would start on the first cylinder going through compression. When the temps were in the 50s this was critical to get the cold engine started. When the voltage dropped the ignition wouldn't fire. With the 1.8 pound lithium battery I just prime and hit the starter.
See the following for battery details.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Jul 1, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | We had a discussion last year about these batteries. As time goes on we are getting more experience with them so please share your experience in your airplane.
Some basic facts about these batteries are they are much lighter, smaller and currently more expensive than equivalent lead acid batteries. They need to be charged with a special balance charger at least infrequently to achieve a long life.
Battery manufactures rate their batteries with two terms, amperage hours (ah) and cold cranking amps (cca). I'm not sure these terms exactly equate to lithium batteries but this is all we get. AH is the total energy in the battery, CCA is the short time cold starting power or in third grade analogy a big engine with a small fuel tank. With many products there are some that may over state the performance/values of their products.
Impressions about Lithium batteries are that they are, voltage and temperature sensitive. The Lithium batteries that are being sold as lead acid replacements like mine are described as Lithium Iron Phosphate. The claim is Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't catch on fire and don't do other bad things???
I have very limited experience. My new Aerovoltz lithium iron phosphate battery is rated at 15ah, 275cca, weighing 1.8lbs it cost $180 including shipping. My old lead acid batteries were all 12ah with app 185cca weighing 12lbs. When I installed the new lithium battery I did the recommended top off charge then turned off the master fuel valve and cranked five times for 5-10 seconds with a cool down (for the starter) with no change in cranking speed or voltage. My old 12ah lead acid battery would drop off near the end of the second crank. When I first got the lithium battery I was convinced they forgot to put the guts in the battery case, it is that light. I always kept a battery maintainer on my old lead acid battery because it was so low in power and they do self discharge. With the tested power of the lithium battery I will not be using the battery maintainer. I also don't know if the maintainer is ok with lithium batteries. The manual with my Lithium battery states that there is less than a 10% discharge per year. Also I stated from memory that my plane weighs 587lbs empty, well opps that was before the battery change and redrive upgrade. It now weighs 576lbs. Redoing my weight and balance calculations
Please share your facts and label you "impressions" as such. Also if you are debating with someone please read the others responses.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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Similar results to yours, very happy with mine. Put in a battery shut off switch so as not to accidentally kill it. No longer have to worry about having enough capacity to crank it until it starts. Apparently you can leave the master on and kill it, but you can't run it down cranking.
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Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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wakataka
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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I've been running one (a Shorai) for almost 3 years now and it's been great. I never put a charger on it. Even after 6 weeks of sitting, the starter spins just like I flew it the day before.
I'm in a relatively warm climate. It never gets below freezing in the hangar. I'm not sure how lithium would compare to lead acid in really cold temps. They would both be affected by it but I'm guessing lithium might be more so. I know the lithium-ion batteries in my camera are useless in the cold. Most all the starting batteries are lithium iron-phosphate, slightly different chemistry, which is not subject to spontaneous combustion like lithium-ion. Look at some of the videos on YouTube of lithium-ion cell phone and computer batteries self combusting and you will think twice about putting one in your airplane. Lithium iron-phosphate won't self ignite or combust.
Lithium batteries are very intolerant of over charging or discharging. One episode of either and they are likely ruined for good. Some of the larger and more sophisticated ones (like the ones on my electric bikes) have an electronic battery management system (BMS) that cuts off the current and prevents this from happening. A good BMS also balances the charge in each cell within the battery. I'm not sure the BMS in the Shorai and other similar batteries does this. Shorai sells a rather pricey charging system that is supposed to do the cell balancing so I'm guessing that their internal BMS doesn't do this, otherwise the expensive charger wouldn't be needed. The Shorai BMS might cut off the battery before it was damaged by over discharge, but I don't want to be the one to test this. If anyone knows whether this is the case, please chime in.
When switching from lead to lithium, beware that because lithium batteries can deliver so many more amps on an instantaneous basis than lead-acid, a lithium battery with much fewer total amp-hours can be used for starting. Manufacturers of lithium batteries typically just state the cold cranking amps. But that's just the amps that it can deliver for a short period when starting. Unless you buy a lithium battery way bigger than you need for starting, the total amp-hours in your lithium starting battery will be a lot less than in the lead acid battery it replaced. So if your alternator goes out, your radios and lights will go out sooner, possibly a lot sooner. I don't have lights and I use a handheld radio, so this is of no concern to me, but it might be to you if you fly at night or in busy airspace where you need the electronics to be powered up. If that's the case, then buy a lithium battery with enough total amp hours (not just cold cranking amps) to meet your emergency needs.
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west1m
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 155
Location: Hastings, MN
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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I believe your statement about running out of power sooner to be true. It seems I ran out of power rather quickly when the alt quit using a Shorai battery. (Earlier post "missed my lunch"
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West1m
Hastings, MN |
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wakataka
Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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When you ran out of juice, did it permanently kill the battery, or were you able to keep using it?
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There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
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west1m
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 155
Location: Hastings, MN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:51 am Post subject: Re: Lithium Batteries |
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Seems OK, I put a automotive type batt charger on it and after finding the charging trouble the batt started the motor with no problem.
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West1m
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