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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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 Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:17 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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At 07:17 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com>
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor? |
No . . . all is right with the universe . . . See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg
"too hot to touch" does not automatically translate
into un-desired performance. These contactors dissipate
about 8w at stable temps . . . which generates and expected
temperature rise of about 100F.
Bob . . .
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Bob McC
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:49 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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Contactors draw about 1 amp, so at 14 volts that's 14 watts of heat which needs to be dissipated. If you think about a 15 watt conventional light bulb being continuously illuminated then trying to hold onto that (which you're unlikely to be able to) you'll understand how hot the contactor can become. In short what you have sounds "normal". You're only 30º or so above ambient which isn't particularly "hot".
The quoted figures of -40º to 122º F would be referring to "ambient".
Bob McC
[quote] --
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_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:47 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
|
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:30 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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Might be great for contactor temps, but I'm pretty sure that the
purchase would burn a hole in my backside....
On 6/25/2016 8:45 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
> On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
>
> When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
>
> Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
>
> I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
>
> Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
>
|
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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I wonder if this device can be used as a starter solenoid? The 300A continuous looks pretty good, and it has fins to dissipate heat. Max current would only flow for 2-10 seconds at a time, which means it will take a heat breather before the next attempt. Our starters never use more than 300A that I know of.
The data sheet says it has internal diode protection for inductive loads, but there is a 150 msec turn off time. How different is this turn off time from our accepted mechanical solenoids?
That burning a hole in the back pocket stuff may be cheap compared to a failure of a mechanical device far away from home.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
&ga href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_tp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://wiki.matronics.comp; -Matt Dralle, Li==========
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:58 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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They are $160. That's slightly more expensive than a good quality continuous duty relay like Skytec, but you only make the purchase one time. Cheap when talking about aircraft parts.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 09:32, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Might be great for contactor temps, but I'm pretty sure that the purchase would burn a hole in my backside....
> On 6/25/2016 8:45 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
>
>
> At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
>
> The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
>
> https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
>
> Justin.
>
>> On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
>>
>> When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
>>
>> Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
>>
>> I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
>>
>> Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
|
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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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Nice. And 125mAmp continuous for the control circuit is about 12% of
the standard contactor isn't it?
On 6/25/2016 9:45 AM, Justin Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
> On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
>
> When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
>
> Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
>
> I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
>
> Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
>
>
|
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:06 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects.
Justin
On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:40, Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com (henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I wonder if this device can be used as a starter solenoid? The 300A continuous looks pretty good, and it has fins to dissipate heat. Max current would only flow for 2-10 seconds at a time, which means it will take a heat breather before the next attempt. Our starters never use more than 300A that I know of.
The data sheet says it has internal diode protection for inductive loads, but there is a 150 msec turn off time. How different is this turn off time from our accepted mechanical solenoids?
That burning a hole in the back pocket stuff may be cheap compared to a failure of a mechanical device far away from home.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
&ga href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_tp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://wiki.matronics.comp; -Matt Dralle, Li==========
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henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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One of the problems with solid state devices is they will bleed current when "OFF." The manufacturer of this device does not state the bleed current on the datasheet. They only state the max and max inrush currents as well as the max voltage drop at 150A.
The bleeding of current was never a factor when incandescent lights were used, because they required higher magnitudes of current relative to LEDs and went totally dim at milliamps of current. LED lights, on the other hand, are relatively efficient and use tens of milliamps of current when operating. When "OFF," they still shine dimly at tens or hundreds of microamps. Perhaps you can contact the relay manufacturer and ask when what the current bleed spec is. Their leaving it off may be an indication of a problem.
This bleed is one good reason not to go with such a relay for both master and starter unless you maintain your battery very well. In cars, we fire them up and charge them daily. In airplanes, it could be months before they get fired up and charged. Leaving a charger on an airplane battery while it's installed is pretty easy, but then there are more and more owners going to lithium ion batteries, which could pose more risk.
NOTE: check out the split lock washer on the power connector bolts. This is not a good way to lock those nuts in vibrating equipment.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects.
Justin
On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:40, Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com (henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I wonder if this device can be used as a starter solenoid? The 300A continuous looks pretty good, and it has fins to dissipate heat. Max current would only flow for 2-10 seconds at a time, which means it will take a heat breather before the next attempt. Our starters never use more than 300A that I know of.
The data sheet says it has internal diode protection for inductive loads, but there is a 150 msec turn off time. How different is this turn off time from our accepted mechanical solenoids?
That burning a hole in the back pocket stuff may be cheap compared to a failure of a mechanical device far away from home.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
&ga href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_tp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://wiki.matronics.comp; -Matt Dralle, Li==========
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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The bleed off hasn't been an issue. I have let it sit for 9 weeks before and no noted battery degradation (PC680). I also have a turn coordinator on the battery bus that spins down and behaves normally when the master is shut off.
Overall, I am extremely pleased with the performance.
Justin
On Jun 25, 2016, at 11:54, Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com (henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | One of the problems with solid state devices is they will bleed current when "OFF." The manufacturer of this device does not state the bleed current on the datasheet. They only state the max and max inrush currents as well as the max voltage drop at 150A.
The bleeding of current was never a factor when incandescent lights were used, because they required higher magnitudes of current relative to LEDs and went totally dim at milliamps of current. LED lights, on the other hand, are relatively efficient and use tens of milliamps of current when operating. When "OFF," they still shine dimly at tens or hundreds of microamps. Perhaps you can contact the relay manufacturer and ask when what the current bleed spec is. Their leaving it off may be an indication of a problem.
This bleed is one good reason not to go with such a relay for both master and starter unless you maintain your battery very well. In cars, we fire them up and charge them daily. In airplanes, it could be months before they get fired up and charged. Leaving a charger on an airplane battery while it's installed is pretty easy, but then there are more and more owners going to lithium ion batteries, which could pose more risk.
NOTE: check out the split lock washer on the power connector bolts. This is not a good way to lock those nuts in vibrating equipment.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects.
Justin
On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:40, Henador Titzoff <henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com (henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I wonder if this device can be used as a starter solenoid? The 300A continuous looks pretty good, and it has fins to dissipate heat. Max current would only flow for 2-10 seconds at a time, which means it will take a heat breather before the next attempt. Our starters never use more than 300A that I know of.
The data sheet says it has internal diode protection for inductive loads, but there is a 150 msec turn off time. How different is this turn off time from our accepted mechanical solenoids?
That burning a hole in the back pocket stuff may be cheap compared to a failure of a mechanical device far away from home.
Henador Titzoff
| Quote: | From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Master contactor temp?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)>
At 300A continuous and 500A inrush for 1 second, this solid state battery master relay has done me quite well for over 100 hours. No moving parts means no arcing and no wearing out of contacts. It allows current to flow both ways and works flawlessly as wired into Bob's 13/8 diagram.
The original application was for the medical package on an ambulance.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/44407/Data-Panel-33034-Solid-State-Battery-Disconnect/
Justin.
| Quote: | On Jun 25, 2016, at 07:17, donjohnston <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "donjohnston" <don(at)velocity-xl.com (don(at)velocity-xl.com)>
I was having the altimeter/transponder check done recently when I noticed the master contactor was hot. Too hot to touch for very long. Now I've never touched a master contactor before so I don't know what "normal" is (OAT was in the mid 90's).
When I got back to the hangar, I turned on the master and checked it with my point-and-shoot thermometer. I was seeing around 120 after about 5 minutes. I think it was a bit hotter while at the shop but I'm positive.
Once back at home, I pulled up the data sheet for the White-Rodgers 90-907 solenoid and the only reference I can find for temperature is "Temperature Range –– -40°F to 122°F"
I don't know if that range is ambient or device. If it's device, then I'm right at the upper limit.
Do I need to be worried? Time for a new master contactor?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457424#457424
&ga href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List" target="_tp://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.comhttp://wiki.matronics.comp; -Matt Dralle, Li==========
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:03 am Post subject: Re: Master contactor temp? |
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"Ambient" refers to the contactor temperature. But keep in mind that "ambient" doesn't refer to the temperature someplace outside, but AT and ON the contactor can.
The Type 70 would not specified to use at many airports and inside the cowls of many airplane based on these numbers. 122 deg F is not very hot. It was hatter than that in Phoenix a couple days ago, and Death Valley that would be a nice day.
Furthermore the type to is G-position sensitive, vibration sensitive, not liquid proof and has many undesireable characterists compared to other solutions.
As for my choice? I go with the Flaming River Battery Switch, or any of the several electronic contactor offerings, unless your mission doesn't take you far from home.
Factoid: No NASCAR vehicle uses a type-70 contactor.
Factoid: Very old Type-70's were made from far better stuff.
Please, can we do better than "hot to the touch"
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Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
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rnjcurtis(at)charter.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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"Ambient" refers to the contactor temperature
             This is not true! The Ambient temperature is the temperature of the
             air in the general vicinity of the subject device, not the temperature of the device itself.
             Roger
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:35 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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am·bi·ent
ˈambēənt/
adjective
- 1.
of or relating to the immediate surroundings of something.
"the liquid is stored at below ambient temperature"
Please, Eric; we can do better with our definitions.
On 6/26/2016 10:03 AM, Eric M. Jones wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones(at)charter.net> (emjones(at)charter.net)
"Ambient" refers to the contactor temperature. But keep in mind that "ambient" doesn't refer to the temperature someplace outside, but AT and ON the contactor can.
The Type 70 would not specified to use at many airports and inside the cowls of many airplane based on these numbers. 122 deg F is not very hot. It was hatter than that in Phoenix a couple days ago, and Death Valley that would be a nice day.
Furthermore the type to is G-position sensitive, vibration sensitive, not liquid proof and has many undesireable characterists compared to other solutions.
As for my choice? I go with the Flaming River Battery Switch, or any of the several electronic contactor offerings, unless your mission doesn't take you far from home.
Factoid: No NASCAR vehicle uses a type-70 contactor.
Factoid: Very old Type-70's were made from far better stuff.
Please, can we do better than "hot to the touch"
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:22 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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At 11:04 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | | I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects. |
The solid state 'contactor' is a array
of field effect transistors controlled
by a variable voltage applied to their
'gates'. When used as a 'switch', on wants
them to be either 'on hard' or 'off hard'
like the behavior of contacts in relays
and switches . . . but depending on the
circuitry that drives the gates, the
transition time between ON and OFF states
may not be quite as fast as for metallic
contacts.
With solid state contactors, there is a much
longer intervale to achieve the same current
flow as an open sent of contacts and it's
most observable when controlling devices that
with activity at every low currents . . . like
an LED. In a dark room, an LED can produce
visible light with tens of micro-amps of current
flow.
Hence, what you've observed is an ordinary
circumstance that does not speak ill of the
contactor's performance. Airplanes with higher
levels of constant-on loads will drag the
bus down faster during contactor shut-down
make the behavior more like metallic contactors
but there's seldom a reason to make this a
design goal.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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At 10:56 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com>
They are $160. That's slightly more expensive than a good quality continuous duty relay like Skytec, but you only make the purchase one time. Cheap when talking about aircraft parts. |
What place do the legacy metallic contactors
hold in the hierarchy of cost-of-ownership
issues. Where to they stand on the list of
risk drivers?
At every airplane factory I've worked at, there
were periodic meetings to identify, discuss and
mount mitigation programs for hardware problems
in the field. The vast majority posed little if
any increase in risk . . . only cost of ownership
and loss of company image with the customer.
I have never seen a metallic contactor on the
top-ten list . . . one of them made it to the
'gee, should we do something about this?' list.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Failures/6041_Contactor_Failure.jpg
The answer was, "No, while perhaps spectacular
there was nothing beyond a cost-of-ownership
issue for less than a dozen aircraft in a fleet
of hundreds over ten years. None of the failures were
even in-warranty.
So what's the return on investment? How often do
you anticipate needing to replace el-cheapo whisky-
barrel/automotive contactors? The legacy contactors
of choice have a rich field history . . . yes . . .
they DO wear out or get damaged . . . but they're
easy to replace at little cost of ownership. Further,
if you've crafted a failure tolerant system, failure
of the $low$ contactor poses no increase in risk.
Further, besides the extra acquisition costs,
what's the weight, real-estate and volume
penalties for going all solid state?
Sometimes, the most practical way to drive a nail
is with a hammer.
Bob . . .
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jmjones2000(at)mindspring
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:53 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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Good to know Bob. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I am really happy with the choice to go with contactor
Justin.
On Jun 26, 2016, at 11:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:04 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | | I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects. |
The solid state 'contactor' is a array
of field effect transistors controlled
by a variable voltage applied to their
'gates'. When used as a 'switch', on wants
them to be either 'on hard' or 'off hard'
like the behavior of contacts in relays
and switches . . . but depending on the
circuitry that drives the gates, the
transition time between ON and OFF states
may not be quite as fast as for metallic
contacts.
With solid state contactors, there is a much
longer intervale to achieve the same current
flow as an open sent of contacts and it's
most observable when controlling devices that
with activity at every low currents . . . like
an LED. In a dark room, an LED can produce
visible light with tens of micro-amps of current
flow.
Hence, what you've observed is an ordinary
circumstance that does not speak ill of the
contactor's performance. Airplanes with higher
levels of constant-on loads will drag the
bus down faster during contactor shut-down
make the behavior more like metallic contactors
but there's seldom a reason to make this a
design goal.
Bob . . .
|
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Master contactor temp? |
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There could also be something else on the bus that has a smoothing capacitor at its front end which is providing enough charge back to the bus to hold the LEDs up briefly when the master is shut off.
On Jun 26, 2016, at 12:52, Justin Jones <jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com (jmjones2000(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:
Good to know Bob. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I am really happy with the choice to go with contactor
Justin.
On Jun 26, 2016, at 11:21, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:04 AM 6/25/2016, you wrote:
| Quote: | | I am not sure if it would work for a starter relay or not. One behavior I noticed is when I leave my LED instrument lights on and shut the battery off (this solid state relay) the LEDs will dim down while shutting off (like dimming them with a pwm). If I shut the LEDs off with their switch, they turn off instantly. Odd, but it doesn't seem to have any ill effects. |
The solid state 'contactor' is a array
of field effect transistors controlled
by a variable voltage applied to their
'gates'. When used as a 'switch', on wants
them to be either 'on hard' or 'off hard'
like the behavior of contacts in relays
and switches . . . but depending on the
circuitry that drives the gates, the
transition time between ON and OFF states
may not be quite as fast as for metallic
contacts.
With solid state contactors, there is a much
longer intervale to achieve the same current
flow as an open sent of contacts and it's
most observable when controlling devices that
with activity at every low currents . . . like
an LED. In a dark room, an LED can produce
visible light with tens of micro-amps of current
flow.
Hence, what you've observed is an ordinary
circumstance that does not speak ill of the
contactor's performance. Airplanes with higher
levels of constant-on loads will drag the
bus down faster during contactor shut-down
make the behavior more like metallic contactors
but there's seldom a reason to make this a
design goal.
Bob . . .
|
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Eric M. Jones
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Master contactor temp? |
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Some object to my use of the term "ambient" as representative of the device temperature. You would be right for solid devices, but the type 70 is a part in a hollow housing.
To make this more clear. If the "surrounding temperature" (perhaps under the cowl) is 130 deg F. What is the temperature of the can when the power is off? 130 deg F.
If the can is 120 deg F and the surrounding temperature is 0 degrees. What is the temperature inside the can? It depends on the rate of heat removal, but it's more than 120 deg F for sure, and a device rated for 122 deg F would be in trouble.
I know this is a more complicated issue. See my attachment on this subject that was slated to have been published in ECN but can't be sure it ever was.
But don't get sidetracked. The type 70 isn't a reasonable device for GA aircraft.
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_________________
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www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
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donjohnston
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Master contactor temp? |
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| Eric M. Jones wrote: | | Please, can we do better than "hot to the touch" |
We can, and I did.
If you will read my post you will see that I checked it with a thermometer and was seeing ~120F. Or do you require an exact temperature? Or do you need some digits to the right of the decimal point?
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