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Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

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jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that. The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.



I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and would love some input on what I should buy.

Jeff Carpenter

N410CF... Flying.



 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)

818-861-7300

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:44 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Buy a buzz box, and a mag timing pin (you may not need that for a while).

Then definitely check your ground lean setting on your engine.



While idling, go mixture full rich, check the RPM.  Lean it out

until it starts to die.  It should raise in RPM before it dies.

See how much higher it goes than what you started at full rich.

You want 20 to 50 RPM rise, no more no less.   The star wheel

on your throttle linkage arm is how you adjust it.  Once you get

it close a couple clicks do make a difference so maybe start with

a few clicks but eventually you'll be down to ticking it one

or two.



If you use good starting technique both cold and hot starts

should be pretty easy.  And if you screw up a hot start you

can always slightly flood it and then use the flooded start

procedure and get it going fairly easily.



Tim



On 7/6/2016 3:27 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil

 changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF

 finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been

 progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with

 different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that.

 The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran

 the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check

 was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.



 I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and

 a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours



 I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and

 would love some input on what I should buy.



 Jeff Carpenter

 N410CF... Flying.



 Westcott Press

 1121 Isabel Street

 Burbank, CA 91506

 jeff(at)westcottpress.com <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>

 818-861-7300

taildragon(at)MSN.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Also, leaning during taxis and warm-up will help

Keep the plugs clean.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: RV10-List: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

 To: rv10-list@matronics.com

 From: Tim@MyRV10.com

 Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:43:29 -0500

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@myrv10.com>

 

 Buy a buzz box, and a mag timing pin (you may not need that for a while).

 Then definitely check your ground lean setting on your engine.

 

 While idling, go mixture full rich, check the RPM.  Lean it out

 until it starts to die.  It should raise in RPM before it dies.

 See how much higher it goes than what you started at full rich.

 You want 20 to 50 RPM rise, no more no less.   The star wheel

 on your throttle linkage arm is how you adjust it.  Once you get

 it close a couple clicks do make a difference so maybe start with

 a few clicks but eventually you'll be down to ticking it one

 or two.

 

 If you use good starting technique both cold and hot starts

 should be pretty easy.  And if you screw up a hot start you

 can always slightly flood it and then use the flooded start

 procedure and get it going fairly easily.

 

 Tim

 

 On 7/6/2016 3:27 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:

 > Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil

 > changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF

 > finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been

 > progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with

 > different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that.

 > The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran

 > the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check

 > was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.

 >

 > I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and

 > a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

 >

 > I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and

 > would love some input on what I should buy.

 >

 > Jeff Carpenter

 > N410CF... Flying.

 >

 >

 >

 > Westcott Press

 > 1121 Isabel Street

 > Burbank, CA 91506

 > jeff@westcottpress.com <mailto:jeff@westcottpress.com>

 > 818============================================================

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Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 209
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Jeff, are using a retard mag, or an impulse coupling? If the timing slips on the retard points it'll get hard to start for sure.  Check the retard points just like the mains, but they should opening at or just after 0*.



--Dave



On Wednesday, July 6, 2016, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that. The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.



I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and would love some input on what I should buy.

Jeff Carpenter

N410CF... Flying.



 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

jeff(at)westcottpress.com

[url=tel:818-861-7300]818-861-7300[/url]

_________________
--Dave
KWVI

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

It sounds like the engine has never been timed? Apparently (?) Lycoming expects the installer to check and adjust the timing. Several builders, including myself, have reported the mag timing was off, right out of the box.



I bought a "kit" buzz box (some soldering required) for less than $50, works fine. I can't remember where I bought the kit, sorry.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:56 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

A mag timing box is not that expensive.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/to/enginetools/synchronizer.php

I don't with the small Slicks, but with the large Bendix S1200s that I 

have, it is necessary to remove a mag to install the engine to the 

engine mount. Obviously the mag has to be re-timed after re-installing.



On 7/6/2016 7:49 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It sounds like the engine has never been timed? Apparently (?) Lycoming expects the installer to check and adjust the timing. Several builders, including myself, have reported the mag timing was off, right out of the box.



 I bought a "kit" buzz box (some soldering required) for less than $50, works fine. I can't remember where I bought the kit, sorry.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457828#457828

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:55 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

I assume you meant to say "I don't know with he small Slicks...", but they do not have to be removed to hang the engine. 

Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

352-427-0285

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

Sent from my iPad

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:56 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

 A mag timing box is not that expensive.

 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/to/enginetools/synchronizer.php

 I don't with the small Slicks, but with the large Bendix S1200s that I have, it is necessary to remove a mag to install the engine to the engine mount. Obviously the mag has to be re-timed after re-installing.

> On 7/6/2016 7:49 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

> 

> 

> It sounds like the engine has never been timed? Apparently (?) Lycoming expects the installer to check and adjust the timing. Several builders, including myself, have reported the mag timing was off, right out of the box.

> 

> I bought a "kit" buzz box (some soldering required) for less than $50, works fine. I can't remember where I bought the kit, sorry.

> 

> --------

> Bob Turner

> RV-10 QB

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457828#457828

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:24 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Yes



On 7/6/2016 9:54 PM, Jesse Saint wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I assume you meant to say "I don't know with the small Slicks...", but they do not have to be removed to hang the engine.



 Jesse Saint

 Saint Aviation, Inc.

 352-427-0285

 jesse(at)saintaviation.com



 Sent from my iPad



> On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:56 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> A mag timing box is not that expensive.

> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/to/enginetools/synchronizer.php

> I don't with the small Slicks, but with the large Bendix S1200s that I have, it is necessary to remove a mag to install the engine to the engine mount. Obviously the mag has to be re-timed after re-installing.

>

>> On 7/6/2016 7:49 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

>> 

>>

>> It sounds like the engine has never been timed? Apparently (?) Lycoming expects the installer to check and adjust the timing. Several builders, including myself, have reported the mag timing was off, right out of the box.

>>

>> I bought a "kit" buzz box (some soldering required) for less than $50, works fine. I can't remember where I bought the kit, sorry.

>>

>> --------

>> Bob Turner

>> RV-10 QB

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457828#457828

>

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jeff(at)westcottpress.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:42 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Retard mag... and the mags were timed with the help of a couple of A&P's with a buzz box before the first engine start. It seems to me that the retard points and main points of the retard mag move together... so if one is off time the other would be as well. Am I missing something here?





On Jul 6, 2016, at 4:49 PM, David Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Jeff, are using a retard mag, or an impulse coupling? If the timing slips on the retard points it'll get hard to start for sure.  Check the retard points just like the mains, but they should opening at or just after 0*.



--Dave



On Wednesday, July 6, 2016, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that. The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.



I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and would love some input on what I should buy.

Jeff Carpenter

N410CF... Flying.



 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

jeff(at)westcottpress.com

[url=tel:818-861-7300]818-861-7300[/url]



 

 



	


 



 	




 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)

818-861-7300

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:52 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

You are  correct. Is there a way to test the Slickstart box? I assume 

your mags are set to 25 degrees.

There are various methods to cleaning plugs. I prefer a dental pick to 

remove lead balls, and rotating bottom plugs to top to keep them clean.

I'm an hour or two behind you on TT. I have one plug that seems 

intermittent, but it tests okay as far as resistance and isn't fouled.

While my ignition is a pair of Bendix S-1200 mags I find fuel system is 

most temperamental on starts. The engine wants to be rich on cold start, 

and have found putting mixture full rich just before cranking gives a 

quick start. Hot starts are another mystery. Boost pump on, mixture idle 

cutoff until starting to crank seems to work, adding mixture slowly 

while cranking. If not enough fuel when it fires it quits easily.

On 7/6/2016 10:40 PM, Jeff Carpenter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Retard mag... and the mags were timed with the help of a couple of A&P's

 with a buzz box before the first engine start. It seems to me that the

 retard points and main points of the retard mag move together... so if

 one is off time the other would be as well. Am I missing something here?

 On Jul 6, 2016, at 4:49 PM, David Saylor wrote:

> Jeff, are using a retard mag, or an impulse coupling? If the timing

> slips on the retard points it'll get hard to start for sure.  Check

> the retard points just like the mains, but they should opening at or

> just after 0*.

>

> --Dave

>

> On Wednesday, July 6, 2016, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com

> <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>> wrote:

>

>     Okay... now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of

>     oil changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in

>     keeping N410CF finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine

>     has been progressively more difficult to start. I've been

>     experimenting with different starting techniques and was

>     attributing the problems to that. The last trip out to the run up

>     area it died at idle. I restarted, ran the engine up to 1700 rpm

>     and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check was okay, but things

>     aren't feeling quite right.

>

>     I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick

>     mags and a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

>

>     I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light

>     and would love some input on what I should buy.

>

>     Jeff Carpenter

>     N410CF... Flying.

>

>     Westcott Press

>     1121 Isabel Street

>     Burbank, CA 91506

>     jeff(at)westcottpress.com

>     818-861-7300 <tel:818-861-7300>

>

>

 Westcott Press

 1121 Isabel Street

 Burbank, CA 91506

 jeff(at)westcottpress.com <mailto:jeff(at)westcottpress.com>

 818-861-7300

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Dave Saylor

Joined: 11 Jan 2015
Posts: 209
Location: GILROY, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:03 pm Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

No, that's correct, when you twist the mag relative to the engine it moves both sets of points together.  It's probably worth checking even though they were set not too long ago. 



But--the retard and the main points can be timed individually as well, relative to each other. As the points wear, their timing changes--probably close to equally but not necessarily.  So it is possible to have the mains firing right at (25*?) and the retards firing at, and say, 10* after instead of 0.  You can check that with a buzz box but to fix it the mag would most likely need to come off.  

--Dave



On Wednesday, July 6, 2016, Jeff Carpenter <jeff(at)westcottpress.com (jeff(at)westcottpress.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Retard mag... and the mags were timed with the help of a couple of A&P's with a buzz box before the first engine start. It seems to me that the retard points and main points of the retard mag move together... so if one is off time the other would be as well. Am I missing something here?





On Jul 6, 2016, at 4:49 PM, David Saylor wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Jeff, are using a retard mag, or an impulse coupling? If the timing slips on the retard points it'll get hard to start for sure.  Check the retard points just like the mains, but they should opening at or just after 0*.



--Dave



On Wednesday, July 6, 2016, Jeff Carpenter <[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jeff(at)westcottpress.com');]jeff(at)westcottpress.com[/url]> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay.. now that the fly off is complete and the first couple of oil changes are behind me it seems I need a crash course in keeping N410CF finely tuned. Over the last few flights the engine has been progressively more difficult to start. I've been experimenting with different starting techniques and was attributing the problems to that. The last trip out to the run up area it died at idle. I restarted, ran the engine up to 1700 rpm and leaned it out. The subsequent idle check was okay, but things aren't feeling quite right.



I'm running a stock Vans supplied YIO-540-D4A5 with dual slick mags and a slick start... Total time on the engine is 44 hours

I've not yet purchased a plug cleaning kit or a mag timing light and would love some input on what I should buy.

Jeff Carpenter

N410CF... Flying.



 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

jeff(at)westcottpress.com

[url=tel:818-861-7300]818-861-7300[/url]



 

 



	


 



 	




 Westcott Press

1121 Isabel Street

Burbank, CA 91506

[url=javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jeff(at)westcottpress.com');]jeff(at)westcottpress.com[/url]

818-861-7300

_________________
--Dave
KWVI

Lenny Iszak

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 270

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Don't forget to check the mags for the Slick SB if you haven't yet.

Tim has an excellent mag timing writeup on his site.



Lenny

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

Like Bob,  I did buy a build-it-yourself kit long ago.

It does work fine.  But, that being said, the link Kelly

sent you is probably what I'd do if I were buying today.

With tweeter.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/to/enginetools/synchronizer.php



I don't remember what I paid, but I would just make it simple

and buy one.

Tim

On 7/6/2016 9:49 PM, Bob Turner wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It sounds like the engine has never been timed? Apparently (?) Lycoming expects the installer to check and adjust the timing. Several builders, including myself, have reported the mag timing was off, right out of the box.



 I bought a "kit" buzz box (some soldering required) for less than $50, works fine. I can't remember where I bought the kit, sorry.



 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

 	  Kellym wrote: 	
		  You are  correct. Is there a way to test the Slickstart box? 



	


Sure. Pull #1 plug, lay it on top of cylinder with ignition lead attached. Disconnect the starter wire.  Carefully, slowly rotate prop until near #1 TDC. Turn on power, hold key on start (or jumper). Slowly rotate prop to TDC. You should see multiple sparks as the retard points open. If Slickstart isn't working, no spark. Use usual precautions around prop.



Edit. You need to use the plug that is attached to the mag that is powered by the Slickstart.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:32 am Post subject: Mag Timing/Fouled Plugs... that sort of thing

That would assume #1 top plug is fired by the left mag. I would want to verify that. I was hoping there might be a simpler test.

-sent from the I-chip implanted in my forearm

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Bob Turner <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "Bob Turner" <bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu (bobturner(at)alum.rpi.edu)>

 Kellym wrote:

 > You are  correct. Is there a way to test the Slickstart box?

 >

 >

 Sure. Pull #1 plug, lay it on top of cylinder with ignition lead attached. Disconnect the starter wire.  Carefully, slowly rotate prop until near #1 TDC. Turn on power, hold key on start (or jumper). Slowly rotate prop to TDC. You should see multiple sparks as the retard points open. If Slickstart isn't working, no spark. Use usual precautions around prop.

 --------

 Bob Turner

 RV-10 QB

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457892#457892

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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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