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richard.goode(at)russiana
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 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: Multigrade oils |
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These engines were never designed to use oils that are as thin as the multigrades, which is why they do leak oil when multigrade are used. Also, the advantages are relatively small, unless you are operating in very cold temperatures, when, in any case you should pre-heat. But, compared to automotive use, cold starts are relatively infrequent.
Another issue that is often ignored is that these engines can corrode badly (particularly in the cylinders) if left without being run frequently. Indeed the official Russian documentation says that the engines should have short-term conservation if not used every week! From this point of view, as someone else has remarked, Aeroshell plus is very good because it has specific anti-corrosion additives.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Multigrade oils |
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Richard,
My YAK is in an unheated hangar and I do occasionally fly in temps as low at 35 degrees. Engine heat is easy at home base, but warming the oil cooler excessively concerns me as some of the heat will rise up into the fuel tank area and potentially cause expansion on a full tank of cold fuel which could lead to venting, putting fuel near the electric heat source. I've been told that straight weight oils can cause issues when the thermister opens the first time and the engine tries to push the cold oil to the engine. Any comments on that? Also, what is your general guideline temperature on when to switch from 100 to 120 Aeroshell? I really would prefer to be running the straight weight oils, but have avoided them as I occasionally take my YAK to Colorado up in the mountains where overnight temperatures can drop below freezing in the spring and fall. Less leaks would be nice.
As to Jill's comment on adding MMO to Phillips XC 25W60, I had exhaust valve issues three years in a row, one resulting in replacing a jug while running straight XC 25W60. Jill suggested adding MMO to the Phillips and I haven't had an issue since beginning that practice five years ago. As they say, you mileage may vary.
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:49 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Multigrade oils
These engines were never designed to use oils that are as thin as the multigrades, which is why they do leak oil when multigrade are used. Also, the advantages are relatively small, unless you are operating in very cold temperatures, when, in any case you should pre-heat. But, compared to automotive use, cold starts are relatively infrequent.
Another issue that is often ignored is that these engines can corrode badly (particularly in the cylinders) if left without being run frequently. Indeed the official Russian documentation says that the engines should have short-term conservation if not used every week! From this point of view, as someone else has remarked, Aeroshell plus is very good because it has specific anti-corrosion additives.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:22 am Post subject: Multigrade oils |
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Russian say that any start below +5°C should have a degree of pre—heat.
I understand your concern about the fuel, but my gut feeling is that it is not a serious concern. Firstly, I don't think that the fuel is going to expand significantly, but if you are concerned, it would be easy to put a small plastic tube onto the tank overflow and guide any fuel well away from the heat.
I understand your issue about the oil cooler, but again if you heat cooler and engine and oil tank, and your ambient temperature is at least minus 5C, then I'm sure you won't have a problem. Anything much below that, then I think you need to have the aircraft in a hangar to do the job properly. However, I have seen Russians starting these engines at -25C (and outside!), but using big hot air burners, so they clearly are not worried about fire!
I don't know what Shell themselves recommend, but personally I would go to 120 at over 30° C ambient.
I have never heard of anyone in Europe using MMO, which is not to say it doesn't work!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 19 July 2016 21:57
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Multigrade oils
Richard,
My YAK is in an unheated hangar and I do occasionally fly in temps as low at 35 degrees. Engine heat is easy at home base, but warming the oil cooler excessively concerns me as some of the heat will rise up into the fuel tank area and potentially cause expansion on a full tank of cold fuel which could lead to venting, putting fuel near the electric heat source. I've been told that straight weight oils can cause issues when the thermister opens the first time and the engine tries to push the cold oil to the engine. Any comments on that? Also, what is your general guideline temperature on when to switch from 100 to 120 Aeroshell? I really would prefer to be running the straight weight oils, but have avoided them as I occasionally take my YAK to Colorado up in the mountains where overnight temperatures can drop below freezing in the spring and fall. Less leaks would be nice.
As to Jill's comment on adding MMO to Phillips XC 25W60, I had exhaust valve issues three years in a row, one resulting in replacing a jug while running straight XC 25W60. Jill suggested adding MMO to the Phillips and I haven't had an issue since beginning that practice five years ago. As they say, you mileage may vary.
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:49 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Multigrade oils
These engines were never designed to use oils that are as thin as the multigrades, which is why they do leak oil when multigrade are used. Also, the advantages are relatively small, unless you are operating in very cold temperatures, when, in any case you should pre-heat. But, compared to automotive use, cold starts are relatively infrequent.
Another issue that is often ignored is that these engines can corrode badly (particularly in the cylinders) if left without being run frequently. Indeed the official Russian documentation says that the engines should have short-term conservation if not used every week! From this point of view, as someone else has remarked, Aeroshell plus is very good because it has specific anti-corrosion additives.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:50 am Post subject: Multigrade oils |
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Thanks Richard. I always appreciate your time to answer questions!
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:21 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Multigrade oils
Russian say that any start below +5°C should have a degree of pre—heat.
I understand your concern about the fuel, but my gut feeling is that it is not a serious concern. Firstly, I don't think that the fuel is going to expand significantly, but if you are concerned, it would be easy to put a small plastic tube onto the tank overflow and guide any fuel well away from the heat.
I understand your issue about the oil cooler, but again if you heat cooler and engine and oil tank, and your ambient temperature is at least minus 5C, then I'm sure you won't have a problem. Anything much below that, then I think you need to have the aircraft in a hangar to do the job properly. However, I have seen Russians starting these engines at -25C (and outside!), but using big hot air burners, so they clearly are not worried about fire!
I don't know what Shell themselves recommend, but personally I would go to 120 at over 30° C ambient.
I have never heard of anyone in Europe using MMO, which is not to say it doesn't work!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 19 July 2016 21:57
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Multigrade oils
Richard,
My YAK is in an unheated hangar and I do occasionally fly in temps as low at 35 degrees. Engine heat is easy at home base, but warming the oil cooler excessively concerns me as some of the heat will rise up into the fuel tank area and potentially cause expansion on a full tank of cold fuel which could lead to venting, putting fuel near the electric heat source. I've been told that straight weight oils can cause issues when the thermister opens the first time and the engine tries to push the cold oil to the engine. Any comments on that? Also, what is your general guideline temperature on when to switch from 100 to 120 Aeroshell? I really would prefer to be running the straight weight oils, but have avoided them as I occasionally take my YAK to Colorado up in the mountains where overnight temperatures can drop below freezing in the spring and fall. Less leaks would be nice.
As to Jill's comment on adding MMO to Phillips XC 25W60, I had exhaust valve issues three years in a row, one resulting in replacing a jug while running straight XC 25W60. Jill suggested adding MMO to the Phillips and I haven't had an issue since beginning that practice five years ago. As they say, you mileage may vary.
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:49 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Multigrade oils
These engines were never designed to use oils that are as thin as the multigrades, which is why they do leak oil when multigrade are used. Also, the advantages are relatively small, unless you are operating in very cold temperatures, when, in any case you should pre-heat. But, compared to automotive use, cold starts are relatively infrequent.
Another issue that is often ignored is that these engines can corrode badly (particularly in the cylinders) if left without being run frequently. Indeed the official Russian documentation says that the engines should have short-term conservation if not used every week! From this point of view, as someone else has remarked, Aeroshell plus is very good because it has specific anti-corrosion additives.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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Ernie
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:30 pm Post subject: Multigrade oils |
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I think you mean a vernatherm.
On Wednesday, July 20, 2016, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil (mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD" <[url=javascript:;]mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil[/url]>
Mark, you used the term "thermister" when I think you meant something called a "veritherm". Are you sure your oil cooler actually has one? It is pretty easy to tell on a regular day with normal temps. Watch your oil temp. As the engine runs during your warmup, does the oil temp climb slowly into the green?
Or does it sit there with oil temps all the way to the left, and then ... more or less... climb quickly into the green, and then DROP back down into the yellow? If the former, you have no veritherm in the oil cooler. If the latter, you probably do.
A lot has been said about pre-heating the engine, and NOT pre-heating the oil cooler. Without a veritherm, the consensus is that when you start the engine, even with pre-heated oil in the oil tank, and even with a pre-heated sump, there is the possibility of a big slug of cold oil sitting in the oil cooler and then being pumped into the engine. Lots of "oh crap" stories ensue. I have no knowledge of this happen, but several folks swear that it has, so there you go.
With the veriterm installed in the oil cooler, oil is BY-PASSED past the oil cooler. No big slug of cold oil. As the oil temp comes up, the veritherm opens... SLOWLY and that slug of cold oil is more or less "carefully" added to the warm oil already in the engine. Exactly as your thermostat in your car works. I mean EXACTLY.
So it is kind of important to know whether your oil cooler has a a veritherm (thermostate) or not.
Mark
p.s. Most 50's, 52's and 55's, and Sukes, came without one.
________________________________
From: [url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url] [[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] on behalf of Mark Davis [[url=javascript:;]markdavis(at)wbsnet.org[/url]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 10:49 AM
To: [url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] RE: Multigrade oils
Thanks Richard. I always appreciate your time to answer questions!
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: [url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url] [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 4:21 AM
To: [url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]
Subject: RE: Multigrade oils
Russian say that any start below +5°C should have a degree of pre—heat.
I understand your concern about the fuel, but my gut feeling is that it is not a serious concern. Firstly, I don't think that the fuel is going to expand significantly, but if you are concerned, it would be easy to put a small plastic tube onto the tank overflow and guide any fuel well away from the heat.
I understand your issue about the oil cooler, but again if you heat cooler and engine and oil tank, and your ambient temperature is at least minus 5C, then I'm sure you won't have a problem. Anything much below that, then I think you need to have the aircraft in a hangar to do the job properly. However, I have seen Russians starting these engines at -25C (and outside!), but using big hot air burners, so they clearly are not worried about fire!
I don't know what Shell themselves recommend, but personally I would go to 120 at over 30° C ambient.
I have never heard of anyone in Europe using MMO, which is not to say it doesn't work!
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel:Â +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com<http://www.russianaeros.com/>
From: [url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]<mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 19 July 2016 21:57
To: [url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]<mailto:[url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>
Subject: RE: Multigrade oils
Richard,
   My YAK is in an unheated hangar and I do occasionally fly in temps as low at 35 degrees. Engine heat is easy at home base, but warming the oil cooler excessively concerns me as some of the heat will rise up into the fuel tank area and potentially cause expansion on a full tank of cold fuel which could lead to venting, putting fuel near the electric heat source. I've been told that straight weight oils can cause issues when the thermister opens the first time and the engine tries to push the cold oil to the engine. Any comments on that? Also, what is your general guideline temperature on when to switch from 100 to 120 Aeroshell? I really would prefer to be running the straight weight oils, but have avoided them as I occasionally take my YAK to Colorado up in the mountains where overnight temperatures can drop below freezing in the spring and fall. Less leaks would be nice.
  As to Jill's comment on adding MMO to Phillips XC 25W60, I had exhaust valve issues three years in a row, one resulting in replacing a jug while running straight XC 25W60.  Jill suggested adding MMO to the Phillips and I haven't had an issue since beginning that practice five years ago. As they say, you mileage may vary.
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: [url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]<mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]> [mailto:[url=javascript:;]owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com[/url]] On Behalf Of Richard Goode
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:49 AM
To: [url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]<mailto:[url=javascript:;]yak-list(at)matronics.com[/url]>
Subject: Multigrade oils
These engines were never designed to use oils that are as thin as the multigrades, which is why they do leak oil when multigrade are used. Also, the advantages are relatively small, unless you are operating in very cold temperatures, when, in any case you should pre-heat. But, compared to automotive use, cold starts are relatively infrequent.
Another issue that is often ignored is that these engines can corrode badly (particularly in the cylinders) if left without being run frequently. Indeed the official Russian documentation says that the engines should have short-term conservation if not used every week! From this point of view, as someone else has remarked, Aeroshell plus is very good because it has specific anti-corrosion additives.
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel:Â +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com<http://www.russianaeros.com/>
--
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