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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:22 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, I had endless problems with overheating with my 914/XS. Going to LAA Rally was a nightmare, because sitting in a queue to take off always led to overheating, needing me to pull out of the queue and shut down. I then had a Woodcomp SR2000 which is a low twist prop, very much like  a Warp Drive one or pretty much any prop you see on a Rotax 91X. The problem is that at idling speeds the central part of the prop is in Beta mode, effectively diverting air from the cooling inlets. When I switched  to a Woodcomp SR3000W the problem was abolished completely, quite apart from gaining an appreciable amount of performance (equivalent to an extra 7 horse power). I can now sit in a queue all day if needs be!  

       I tried to attach the paper documenting a detailed comparison of performance with the two props, which appeared in the Europa mag some years back, but the list rejected it. However if you google, 'Does Propeller Twist matter' it comes up top of the options 

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-07-28 11:22, Roland wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>



Hello,



I have the conventional XS cowling with the 914 and overheating might occur on the ground in high OAT's (25-30Â°C). I've shut down the engine once when reaching 118Â°C and then I could hear the 50/50 antifreeze boiling lightly. Does anyone know roughly the temperature gap between the CHT/CT (I only have a CHT gauge)?



I've read on another forum, that increasing to 2700RPM (and switch to a courser pitch?) brings down the temperature. I also have a water Thermostate installed, which I'll remove in a first step to lower the CHT-temperatures on the ground and increase the time until I have to shut down the engine (when reaching 115Â°C CHT). With this measure I (hopefully) increase the oil temperature at the same time (oil cooler partly covered by Radiator) so that I can taxi and take off earlier, since I don't have to wait for the oil to warm. Same goes after landing regarding the cooling run for the Turbo, when the CHT is creeping up quickly. 



What are your experiences especially without water Thermostate on the ground in high temperatures / measures to avoid overheating? 



I want to start with simple things before modifying the cooling tunnel, because I "only" have issues on the ground and quite satisfying setup for flying. Also modifications often end in a never ending story and often the only practical solution might be the best compromise... 



The cooling of the XS is only sufficient for English summers I'm afraid 



Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914





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rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

I believe the consensus on this forum and from hanging out with Europanauts

for many years has been that the 914 requires modification of the cowl and baffling to reduce the prevalent overheating issues at low airspeed and high OAT.



I believe Bud Yerly has extensive experience with these modifications.

_________________
Ira N224XS

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi David and Ira,



I guess you are both right, but achieved cooling-improvement on different ways. 



David, I well remember our chat on the Europa AGM last year but have to admit, that I thought of something cheaper than a new propeller. I even would consider this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution. But since my Europa is on the Dutch register, I'd expect considerable paperwork with the authorities going along with additional costs. However additional performance is also tempting  



Ira, yes - Bud Yerly has huge knowledge of the Europa cooling modifications and I know his comprehensive article. Since I can't do much myself and cannot bring my Europa to his shop, I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the thermostate first.



I have already modified the airflow in the tunnel with an aluminum sheet to force more air through the radiator and the result is quite good when airborn in all kind of OATs even in extensive climbs at MTOM. On the other hand I know of conventional installations (XS-cowling and 914) like the one of Tim Weert from Holland, who seems to have no cooling issues. The cooling-problem in my Europa is either not dramatic, since I can run the engine for >10 minutes from start up until take off in 28Â°C (and that is with a coolant thermostate which pushes the temperatures quick to 85Â°C). It's rather the situations like sitting behind a queue at the holding position - like David described it - when it becomes uncomfortable with one eye always on the CHT-gauge. At the AERO fare in Friedrichshafen I positioned my Europa 3 meters behind a Cirrus SR 22 to keep the CHT at 115Â°C.  



I'll remove the thermostate first....



Anyway thanks for your advice!



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:58 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi 



Neville Eyre's cowling a make the engine run a lot cooler on the ground.  Give him a ring and I'm sure he will be pleased to discuss.



When OAT is high I always taxi my 914 Eoropa with coarse pitch set - it certainly helps.



Regards

Trev 

G-LINN



Sent from my iPhone 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 28 Jul 2016, at 15:18, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi David and Ira,

 

 I guess you are both right, but achieved cooling-improvement on different ways. 

 

 David, I well remember our chat on the Europa AGM last year but have to admit, that I thought of something cheaper than a new Propeller. I even would consider this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution. But since my Europa is on the Dutch Register, I'd expect considerable paperwork with the authorities going along with additional costs. However additional performance is also tempting  

 

 Ira, yes - Bud Yerly has huge knowledge of the Europa cooling modifications and I know his comprehensive article. Since I can't do much myself and cannot bring my Europa to his shop, I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the Thermostate first.

 

 I have already modified the airflow in the tunnel with an aluminum sheet to force more air through the Radiator and the result is quite good when airborn in all kind of OATs even in extensive climbs at MTOM. On the other hand I know of conventional installations (XS-cowling and 914) like the one of Tim Weert from Holland, who seems to have no cooling issues. The cooling-problem in my Europa is either not dramatic, since I can run the engine for >10 minutes from start up until take off in 28Â°C (and that is with a coolant Thermostate which pushes the temperatures quick to 85Â°C). It's rather the situations like sitting behind a queue at the holding position - like David described it - when it becomes uncomfortable with one eye always on the CHT-gauge. At the AERO fare in Friedrichshafen I positioned my Europa 3 meters behind a Cirrus SR 22 to Keep the CHT at 115Â°C.  

 

 I'll remove the Thermostate first....

 

 Anyway thanks for your advice!

 

 Regards

 Roland

 PH-ZTI

 XS TG 914

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458828#458828

zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi Roland,



 	  Roland wrote: 	
		  ...that I thought of something cheaper than a new propeller. I even would consider this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution. But since my Europa is on the Dutch register, I'd expect considerable paperwork with the authorities going along with additional costs. 	


This might be easier than you might think: if I remember correctly, PH-DIY has this engine/prop combination (2-blade version I think).



 	  Roland wrote: 	
		  ...I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the thermostate first. 	


How is removing the water thermostat going to help? With CT over 85C it's wide open, isn't it? With CHT's way up high, it is fair to assume that CT is well above 85C. I would not expect you're getting more coolant to flow by removing the thermostat and don't see how this is going to help you to bring the CHT's down...



One option you could consider, but only worthwhile looking at if you your oil-temps are 'well below' red-line: an oil-water heat exchanger. This would allow you to use the excess cooling capacity of your oil radiator to bring down CHT indirectly (additional benefit of this approach a.o. is your oil temp will be above 50C quicker after startup)

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:17 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, I would not for a moment knock the benefits of having better designed cowlings and internal cooling air flow arrangements. If I were starting again  I would go down that course as well as having a high twist prop. The most impressive cowling design I have come across is the beautiful one Nigel Graham has produced for his Callisto Europa variant. However as a fix, a high twist prop seems comparitively cheap and easy (Dutch authorities apart!) and has the added benefit of improved performance. 

For interest I have worked out the 'natural air flow rate' past the tip and 1/3 radius points of my two props when they are idling in fine pitch at 1700 engine rpm: 

      Low twist       tip (31 deg) 69kts     1/3 R (43 deg) 35.7 kts 

      High twist      Tip (23 deg) 49kts     1/3 R (49 deg) 44.2kts 

You will see that the low rwist blade is trying to produce an airflow at its tip almost twice that at its inner part, whereas the flow on the high twist blade is relatively unifofm along its length. I am not an aerodynamicist, so cannot say just what effect that might have, but would be surprised if it does not result in a significant diversion of air flow out from the central portion which of course contains the colling air inlets. These figures are for the Woodcomp props, but Warp Drive and other low twist blades must provide very similar results. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-07-28 23:20, zwakie wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "zwakie" <mz(at)cariama.nl (mz(at)cariama.nl)>



Hi Roland,

Roland wrote:...that I thought of something cheaper than a new propeller. I even would consider this, when it would be "only" the money provided it's a reliable solution. But since my Europa is on the Dutch register, I'd expect considerable paperwork with the authorities going along with additional costs.This might be easier than you might think: if I remember correctly, PH-DIY has this engine/prop combination (2-blade version I think).

Roland wrote:...I have to stick to more or less easy solutions like removing the thermostate first.How is removing the water thermostat going to help? With CT temps over 85C it's wide open, isn't it? With CHT's way up high, it is fair to assume that CT temps are well above 85C. I would not expect you're getting more coolant to flow by removing the thermostat and don't see how this is going to help you to bring the CHT's down...



One option you could consider, but only worthwhile looking at if you your oil-temps are 'well below' red-line: an oil-water heat exchanger. This would allow you to use the excess cooling capacity of your oil radiator to bring down CHT indirectly (additional benefit of this approach a.o. is your oil temp will be above 50C quicker after startup)



--------

Marcel Zwakenberg

XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR





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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:41 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hello Marcel,



removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with much lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then warm up immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - so I shorten the time waiting for the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50Â°C CHT when I start taxi with the oil at 30Â°C.



The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to the oil temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75Â°C oil/water temps, I have a margin of 40Â°C until I'd have to shut down at 115Â°C. That's also quite some time.



The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.



As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as well. However I also think it's doable with the ILENT...  



David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest benefit is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a couple of knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp dealer and he estimated the Price in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check the exact price for me (anyone want an Airmaster for 4000 EUR  ?   



A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in front of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.



He also recommended this cooling fluid http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601  , which also seems to drop the temperatures a bit.



Many food for thought - thanks again friends!



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:10 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, 



  

A couple of notes about Woodcomp. Frans Veldman has the long bladed SR3000/2W, the 

same as my own ( I was the first to use one). It necessitates the raising of the nose gear 

by 50 mm, a fairly simple and inexpensive mod. Mine also has the feathering (glijkstelling?) 

option. 

I have no idea which control instruments would be available, because Smartavionics no 

longer supply theirs. The original dual instrument from Woodcomp did not work for me 

at all. 

Karl 



  



  

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de>

 Sent: 29 July 2016 10:41:42

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>

 

 Hello Marcel,

 

 removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with much lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then warm up immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - so I shorten the time waiting for  the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50Â°C CHT when I start taxi with the oil at 30Â°C.

 

 The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to the oil temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75Â°C oil/water temps, I have a margin of 40Â°C until I'd have to shut down at 115Â°C. That's also quite some time.

 

 The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.

 

 As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as well. However I also think it's  doable with the ILENT...  

 

 David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest benefit is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a couple of knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp dealer and he estimated the Price  in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check the exect Price for me (anyone want an Airmster for 4000 EUR  ?   

 

 A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in front of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.

 

 He also recommended this cooling fluid  http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601  , which also seems to drop the temperatures a bit.

 

 Many food for thought - thanks again friends!

 

 Regards

 Roland

 PH-ZTI

 XS TG 914

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458862#458862

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hello Karl,



I was envious of the design of Frans's and Ilona's (BTW where are they??) cooling tunnel, which can be lowered completely into the airflow. From what I've read about the Woodcomp Prop I now suspect it's the main contributer to the cooling efficiency of their plane. On the other hand I remember, that Frans had a lot of head scratching due to cooling issues despite using the Woodcomp in the beginning of the flight testing of PH-DIY. He admired the guys in the Dimona TTC doing airtows in hot weather all day long.



To be fair, I'm generally very satisfied with the Airmaster and Martin is great in supporting if any problems come up. Also the controller is trouble free in operation (I have the full feather option as well). With the Warp Drive blades you can mowe the high grass at the airfield 



Airmaster also provide new Whirlwind blades, which can be used on the AP332 hub with some modifications. But I don't know their contribution to airflow/cooling yet, only heard that they also add some knots to Speed.



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:41 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, It was actually a 4kt gain in top speed at various altitudes, equivalent to an extra 7.5 horse power. William Mills did comparable direct comparisons in his 912 Classic and also gained 4kts top speed with improvements in fuel consumption & climb performance. I believe, by the way, that the latest Woodcomp controller is a good design, very much up to the Smart Avionics one. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-07-29 10:41, Roland wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>



Hello Marcel,



removing the thermostat brings the benefit, that I can taxi earlier (with much lower CHTs) after engine start, because the radiator, which will then warm up immediately also warms the oil cooler, that is mounted behind it - so I shorten the time waiting for the oil temps to rise. Now I have >50Â°C CHT when I start taxi with the oil at 30Â°C.



The same at the holding position, where I expect the CHTs to be close to the oil temperatures. When I'm ready for departure with 75Â°C oil/water temps, I have a margin of 40Â°C until I'd have to shut down at 115Â°C. That's also quite some time.



The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only with ample cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.



As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa Trigear flying with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC. And the MTOM has to be 656 kg as well. However I also think it's doable with the ILENT...  



David, I've read your interesting article now and it seems the biggest benefit is in cooling rather than performance, although I wouldn't sniff at a couple of knots either. I asked my Dutch mechanic, who is also a Woodcomp dealer and he estimated the Price in the region of 4500 EUR, but will check the exect Price for me (anyone want an Airmster for 4000 EUR  ?   



A Belgian Europa friend has mounted a cooling flap in the lower cowling in front of the Radiator which also works pretty well he says.



He also recommended this cooling fluid http://www.sm-sport.de/Oele-Pflege/Sonstiges/Denicol-Sub-Zero-Water-Cooler-2-Liter-Kuehlfluessigkeit.htm?SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=D180-1432&p=601  , which also seems to drop the temperatures a bit.



Many food for thought - thanks again friends!



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914





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zwakie

Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 157

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi Roland,



Thanks for your explanation. I can follow your reasoning, but to me this approach of taking out the water thermostat sounds like fighting symptoms instead of root cause, right?



 	  Roland wrote: 	
		  ... Frans's and Ilona's (BTW where are they??)... 	


Last thing I heard is that they are doing a sailing trip around the world, I was told hey have been away from home for over a year now...



 	  Roland wrote: 	
		  ...On the other hand I remember, that Frans had a lot of head scratching due to cooling issues despite using the Woodcomp in the beginning of the flight testing of PH-DIY. .. 	


Yes indeed, they have been changing things over quite a lot initially. I don't remember it's current state, but at one point the original oil cooler was taken out, and replaced with a smaller oil cooler on a dedicated NACA-inlet (not in tandem with the water cooler), dumping the air into the cowling itself. On top of that an oil-water heat exchanger and a cowl-flap. Built to very high standards and very cool looking, but most importantly: this setup worked a treat...

_________________
Marcel Zwakenberg
Europa XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:26 pm Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

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Hash: SHA1



On 07/29/2016 11:41 AM, Roland wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The oil/water exchanger is generally a brilliant idea, but only

 with ample cooling reserves, which I don't have unfortunately.


	


Just a few notes:

After a lot testing it became obvious that the whole single problem of

the Europa cooling is that the radiator is way too thick, so air won't

flow easily through it. (It is NOT a cylinder wall cooling problem

like some people seem to think. Although you could get a little bit

more margin by blowing more air over the engine, it is not an

efficient solution. It is like driving your car with a clogged

radiator, and then discovering if you leave off the hood that it will

improve the situation a bit. It works, but it is not the correct way

to do it).



This became quite obvious when I observed the Dimona's towing gliders

at my homefield, they have exactly the same engine but tow gliders

during a hot day with full power climbs at low airspeeds, without any

problems.



After going through the whole process of lowering the oil radiator,

widening the dog house exit, making more holes in the cowling, I had

still not a very good cooling.

All problems were immediately solved when I kicked out the old coolant

radiator and replaced it with a thin radiator just like they use in

Dimona's and other commercial Rotax driven aircraft.



So, what I did was:

1) Close the two "eyes" in front of the cowling. They don't serve any

purpose. Also close the "gills".

2) Put a thin radiator in the "belly" of the cowling. The air exiting

the radiator is dumped "as is" into the cowling, and aimed at the

bottom of the engine (and exhaust tubes and damper). It helps cooling

the bottom of the engine where the oil collects and of course it also

helps if the heat from the exhaust is blown away before it can heat up

the engine bay.

3) Cooling the oil is done with a heat exchanger where the oil heat is

transferred to the coolant. This has several benefits:

a) The oil temperature will be slightly warmer than the coolant,

exactly what you want.

b) The oil will be warmed up more quickly when you start the engine.

c) If you get the coolant temp right, the oil temp will be right as well.

d) It doesn't need any airflow, the whole setup is straigtforward.

4) I took away the doghouse and cowling exit and replaced it by an

almost level flap. Typically during flight the underside of the flap

is only 1cm(!) lower than the rest of the airplane. That's right, the

cooling is now so efficient that you don't need the doghouse at all

but just a sleek 1cm "doghouse" is sufficient.

5) I rerouted the exhaust through a "tunnel" ending short of the end

of the tunnel. This will create a ventury which will suck air through

the tunnel. I never tested this but it is assumed that this will help

the airflow through the cowling and it also lowers the drag of the

exhaust.



The result:

1) Enough cooling for any circumstances. Cooling is no longer an

issue. I can idle the engine unlimited time while on a mediterran hot

tarmac with temperatures around 40C. I can climb at full power with 60

knots airspeed as long as I want. There are no cooling problems at all

anymore.

2) Way less drag. The doghouse is gone, with its associated vacuum

hole and turbulent air dragging behind it. Less air is spilled for

cooling, so less air is disturbed. I estimate that I gained around 8

knots of speed by this conversion.



 	  Quote: 	
		   As for the efforts with the Dutch CAA - there isn't a Europa

 Trigear flying with the Woodcomp SR 3000 W AFAIK (Frans Feldmann

 has the 2-bladed). For the "glijkstelling" this is required IIRC.


	


So you can have the 2-bladed prop because I (Dutch) have it already. A

2-blade prop is more efficient than a 3-blade prop, just like a single

plane aircraft is faster than a bi-plane. Leading edge is costly. The

less "leading edge" you have racing around bumping air molecules away,

the less drag. I did not find any disadvantages of having a two blade

prop, although it is said that carb balancing is more important. I

keep my carbs balanced anyway so for me it is no issue. Oh and it

saves some 4 Kg of gyroscoping weight at the nose.



Because the two bladed prop is a little bit longer, I extended the

nose gear 5cm to restore the ground clearance, but probably it is not

really necessary.



I would have invited you for a look at the PH-DIY, but I'm sailing

around the world (I'm currently in Tahiti).



Frans

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Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hi David,

I agree 100% with you about the effect of high twist blades on ground cooling and the possible improvement of the cruise performances, but I am puzzled by your figures. 

Your figures for the Woodcomp low twist prop suggest these blades are very far from being suitable for this engine (914) as they need to be set at an incredibly high angle to transmit the power. It is very likely that the blades are fully stalled during the early take off phase, therefore reducing the take off performance. It is even possible that they are partially stalled (at the tip) at cruise. 

My point is:  if you start from a very bad prop, almost any other prop you try will show a significant performance improvement. It would be very interested to find out how the performances of your Woodcomp high twist prop compare with those of the Airmaster/Warp Drive.

Remi

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 184

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:45 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Has anyone experimented with putting an electric driven fan on the radiators i.e. a computer cooling fan?



The Skyarrow has one fitted for use during taxi etc to aid cooling and it is then switched off before takeoff. 



Alan

GOBJT

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:28 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Remi, I agree that it would be great to have definitive trials of the whole range of props. Europa at one stage promised this but never came up with the goods. I would be very surprised if the Sr 2000 is a 'bad prop'. I first became interested in it when I saw Tom  Justic's 914/SR2000 /XS take off together with th company 914/Airmaster/XS at Benezov during the 2000 Prague Fly out. Tom's plane climbed at an angle that looked to be 10 degrees steeper, whilst keeping up in a horizontal sense. During the years I flew one I never had problems keeping up with rivals. The tip angles were adjusted in both cases to give a max static of 5650 rpm. 

Regards, David 

   

 

On 2016-07-30 11:51, Remi Guerner wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr (air.guerner(at)orange.fr)>



Hi David,

I agree 100% with you about the effect of high twist blades on ground cooling and the possible improvement of the cruise performances, but I am puzzled by your figures. 

Your figures for the Woodcomp low twist prop suggest these blades are very far from being suitable for this engine (914) as they need to be set at an incredibly high angle to transmit the power. It is very likely that the blades are fully stalled during the early take off phase, therefore reducing the take off performance. It is even possible that they are partially stalled (at the tip) at cruise. 

My point is:  if you start from a very bad prop, almost any other prop you try will show a significant performance improvement. It would be very interested to find out how the performances of your Woodcomp high twist prop compare with those of the Airmaster/Warp Drive.

Remi





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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Hello Marcel, all,



yes - I'm fighting symptoms and of course I know, that it would be better to rather fix the source of the problems thoroughly instead, which obviously is, what Frans did (Frans - thanks a lot for your far-reaching explanations, your offer to have a look and btw good to know you're well off . 



I've learned, that most live with the cooling shortcomings of the Europa somehow or investigated and found their own ways to cure it (like David Joyce, who left it all like it is and changed to another propeller). At least I've read about and also saw many interesting solutions. Bud Yerly in Florida did something different than Frans who did it different than Neville Eyre.....



What I forgot to tell you, but what is most important for the whole discussion: I didn't build my Europa but bought it second hand. Those who found the best solutions are also builders or even worked at Europa Aircraft or have a shop, like Bud. What Frans and Ilona achieved or Bud Yerly does for his customers is way beyond my skills.  



So I came to the conclusion, that I have to buy a Woodcomp, SR 3000 W, which seems to be an adequate fix for the cooling problem and adds a tad to the performance as well (since I want to keep the rest of the setup as it is, like David did, I'd also chose the 3-bladed and not the 2-bladed for that reason) or I make a flap in front of the cooler, like a friend in Belgium did it at his XS Mono 912S. Another option might be the new Whirlwind blades with a wider chord in the Airmaster hup http://www.airmasterpropellers.com/products/productdescription/type/view/id/67/ww-r64w, but I don't know yet if this is sufficient, since they are comparatively new. Obviously this would be much cheaper than a new Woodcomp with Controller.



At least my "only" cooling problem is SOLELY ON THE GROUND and in a couple of years, even though running the engine with a thermostat I never actually had to shut down the engine due to overheating. So I have to focus on that problem during ground operation.



Anyway thanks again to all for your input - much appreciated!!



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:11 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Ask who has experience with the Whirlwind blades, David Joyce has recently fitted them but not done much flying yet, (approval issues with the LAA)

They look  and sound very nice, much less harsh than the Warp Drive blades.

btw 3 blades will be smoother than 2, (which is why 2 blade windmills fail much sooner than 3 blade ones)



Graham

 

    On Saturday, 30 July 2016, 21:06, Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:



  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>



Hello Marcel, all,



yes - I'm fighting symptoms and of course I know, that it would be better to rather fix the source of the problems thoroughly instead, which obviously is, what Frans did (Frans - thanks a lot for your far-reaching explanations, your offer to have a look and btw good to know you're well off . 



I've learned, that most live with the cooling shortcomings of the Europa somehow or investigated and found their own ways to cure it (like David Joyce, who left it all like it is and changed to another propeller). At least I've read about and also saw many interesting solutions. Bud Yerly in Florida did something different than Frans who did it different than Neville Eyre.....



What I forgot to tell you, but what is most important for the whole discussion: I didn't build my Europa but bought it second hand. Those who found the best solutions are also builders or even worked at Europa Aircraft or have a shop, like Bud. What Frans and Ilona achieved or Bud Yerly does for his customers is way beyond my skills.  



So I came to the conclusion, that I have to buy a Woodcomp, SR 3000 W, which seems to be an adequate fix for the cooling problem and adds a tad to the performance as well (since I want to keep the rest of the setup as it is, like David did, I'd also chose the 3-bladed and not the 2-bladed for that reason) or I make a flap in front of the cooler, like a friend in Belgium did it at his XS Mono 912S. Another option might be the new Whirlwind blades with a wider chord in the Airmaster hup http://www.airmasterpropellers.com/products/productdescription/type/view/id/67/ww-r64w, but I don't know yet if this is sufficient, since they are comparatively new. Obviously this would be much cheaper than a new Woodcomp with Controller.



At least my "only" cooling problem is SOLELY ON THE GROUND and in a couple of years, even though running the engine with a thermostat I never actually had to shut down the engine due to overheating. So I have to focus on that problem during ground operation.



Anyway thanks again to all for your input - much appreciated!!



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914





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Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

I'll check the Whirlwind option as well. The performance improvement seems to be quite similar to the Woodcomp. Unfortunately they are not plug and play and some modifications to the hub/rootes are necessary. I spoke to Martin from Airmaster at the AERO fare. 



Good thing is, that the LAA doesn't have me over a barrel any longer, since my Europa is  Dutch registered now 



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

David, why are you testing the Whirlwind blades? You wrote, that you are satisfied with the Woodcomp. Anyway I would be very interested in the results, especially how/if they improve cooling, since you have a similar setup (I guess there's not such a big difference between Mono and Trigear).



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI 

XS TG 914

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: Fwd: Re: Cooling issues XS 914 on the ground

Roland, There are two David  Joyces and I suspect it must be the other one! 

David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-07-31 19:01, Roland wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de (schmidtroland(at)web.de)>



David, why are you testing the Whirlwind blades? You wrote, that you are satisfied with the Woodcomp. Anyway I would be very interested in the results, especially how/if they improve cooling, since you have a similar setup (I guess there's not such a big difference between Mono and Trigear).



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI 

XS TG 914





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