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Intermittent Battery Failure
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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

The first symptoms appeared a couple of weeks ago.  The Dynon D-180 rebooted during decent when the engine was idling.  (My D-180 does not have a backup battery installed.)  It happened again a few days later.  My first thought was that the 6-year-old PC680 battery needed charging.  But I dismissed that theory because the D-180 only needs 10 volts to operate.  And the battery always cranked the engine fine.   Back on the ground, the battery measured near 13 volts.  Next theory: Maybe the D-180 is not working right?

  I fully charged the battery, removed the charger, and waited a couple of days before measuring the battery voltage at 13.  Just to rule out the battery, I decided to turn on the master switch and landing light (nothing else) and see how long the battery would last before running down.  After turning on the master, I heard an intermittent clicking sound for a few seconds, then quiet.  The landing light did not come on.  Using the positive battery terminal as a reference point, the voltage on the master contactor small terminal was 4.5 volts.  Maybe a defective master switch?  No.  The airframe also measured 4.5 volts.  The negative battery terminal was also at 4.5 volts, but only for a couple of seconds.  Then the landing light came on and the battery measured close to 13 volts.  I left the landing light on for a half hour before shutting everything off.  The battery measured 12.4 volts.  Maybe there was a bad connection at the battery?  I took the M6 battery bolts out and made sure the ring terminals were clean and put it all back together and charged the battery.  The next day, everything worked and the battery was still close to 13 volts.

  Then today I went into the +90 degree F hangar and turned on the master switch and landing light.  Nothing.  The battery voltage varied between 2 and 5 volts.  The voltage must have gone above that for a few milliseconds because the contactor made a faint click noise periodically.

  Of course I will buy a new PC680 battery.  I thought the failure mode was unusual and decided to post about it here.  Sometimes the battery was putting out 13 volts and sometimes less than 5 volts.  Strange.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:29 pm Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

 	  Quote: 	
		  

   Of course I will buy a new PC680 battery.  I thought the failure mode was unusual and decided to post about it here.  Sometimes the battery was putting out 13 volts and sometimes less than 5 volts.  Strange. 	


   Please send me your old battery. I'll reimburse the postage.

   We'll see what we can find out.



   PO Box 130

   Medicine Lodge, KS 67104



 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

Bob, 

Does your PO Box accept heavy packages like a battery?

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

stephencliverichards(at)g
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:21 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

If you have 4.5v from battery neg terminal to frame with a low load current you must have a high resistance in connection to battery, ground to framework, or in connecting cable or lugs

Clive



From: user9253 (fransew(at)gmail.com)

Sent: â€Ž21/â€Ž07/â€Ž2016 01:44

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intermittent Battery Failure

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



The first symptoms appeared a couple of weeks ago.  The Dynon D-180 rebooted during decent when the engine was idling.  (My D-180 does not have a backup battery installed.)  It happened again a few days later.  My first thought was that the 6-year-old PC680 battery needed charging.  But I dismissed that theory because the D-180 only needs 10 volts to operate.  And the battery always cranked the engine fine.   Back on the ground, the battery measured near 13 volts.  Next theory: Maybe the D-180 is not working right?

  I fully charged the battery, removed the charger, and waited a couple of days before measuring the battery voltage at 13.  Just to rule out the battery, I decided to turn on the master switch and landing light (nothing else) and see how long the battery would last before running down.  After turning on the master, I heard an intermittent clicking sound for a few seconds, then quiet.  The landing light did not come on.  Using the positive battery terminal as a reference point, the voltage on the master contactor small terminal was 4.5 volts.  Maybe a defective master switch?  No.  The airframe also measured 4.5 volts.  The negative battery terminal was also at 4.5 volts, but only for a couple of seconds.  Then the landing light came on and the battery measured close to 13 volts.  I left the landing light on for a half hour before shutting everything off.  The battery measured 12.4 volts.  Maybe there was a bad connection at the battery?  I took the M6 battery bolts out and !

 made sure the ring terminals were clean and put it all back together and charged the battery.  The next day, everything worked and the battery was still close to 13 volts.

  Then today I went into the +90 degree F hangar and turned on the master switch and landing light.  Nothing.  The battery voltage varied between 2 and 5 volts.  The voltage must have gone above that for a few milliseconds because the contactor made a faint click noise periodically.

  Of course I will buy a new PC680 battery.  I thought the failure mode was unusual and decided to post about it here.  Sometimes the battery was putting out 13 volts and sometimes less than 5 volts.  Strange.



--------

Joe Gores





Read this topic online here:



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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 08:34 PM 7/20/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Bob, 

 Does your PO Box accept heavy packages like a battery? 	


  Sure. There is a medium priority mail flat

  rate box with inside dims 11 x 8.5 x 5.5

  that should hold it.



 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

 	  Quote: 	
		  If you have 4.5v from battery neg terminal to frame with a low load current you must have a high resistance in connection to battery, ground to framework, or in connecting cable or lugs 

Clive 	


Clive,  You overlooked the part of my post saying that the positive battery terminal was used as a reference point for the voltmeter tests.

But I appreciate you trying to help.

_________________
Joe Gores

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

Bob, I had already boxed up the battery with 2" of Styrofoam all around it.  The box is too big for your PO Box.  Can I send it to your house instead?  I have the address: 2*9 ***** Lane.

EDIT:  Disregard the above.  I will use flap rate mail to PO Box.

  Before boxing it up, I checked the battery voltage once again.  It varied between zero and 12.5.  The problem seems to be getting worse.  By the time it gets to you, it might be a completely open circuit.  Do you still want me to send it?  I do not know what you can do with it except to cut the case open.  I know that you have many irons in the fire and hate to see you spend time and money for shipping.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

Last edited by user9253 on Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:28 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

Occasional oversize items aren't normally an issue for USPS PO box subscribers. The clerk just leaves a key in the PO box to a parcel locker, where the package is placed.Â But...

It will likely be cheaper to re-box it in a 'flat rate' priority box like Bob described, than to pay even Standard Rate shipping on something heavy like a battery.

Charlie

(USPS Operations Support Specialist in a previous life)

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 8:04 AM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Bob, I had already boxed up the battery with 2" of Styrofoam all around it.Â  The box is too big for your PO Box.Â  Can I send it to your house instead?Â  I have the address: 2*9 ***** Lane.

 Â  Before boxing it up, I checked the battery voltage once again.Â  It varied between zero and 12.5.Â  The problem seems to be getting worse.Â  By the time it gets to you, it might be a completely open circuit.Â  Do you still want me to send it?Â  I do not know what you can do with it except to cut the case open.Â  I know that you have many irons in the fire and hate to see you spend time and money for shipping.

 Joe

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

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rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

This sure sounds like a classic bad connection in your wiring plant.

Batteries do not generally fail in this manner with wild swings in output (unless it is a loose connection to multiple electrode plates internally).



When you put your VOM directly to the 680, was it simply by touching the leads to the contact bolt tops, or was it via an electrically secure connection?



OTOH, six years is pretty long in the tooth for a 680 in an aviation application. They are cycle-lifetime limited and will slowly reduce their charge holding capacity.  I have changed out my Odessey 680 four times over the 12 years of service of my Europa.

_________________
Ira N224XS

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

Thanks Charlie, I misread Bob's post and thought that he was giving the dimensions of his PO Box.  I will use your suggestion.

-

Rampil,  the problem can not be the aircraft wiring because I was measuring voltage directly between the battery terminals.  Well actually on the 6mm stainless steel bolts that screw into the brass battery terminals.

-

Just to be 100 percent sure that I am not seeing things, I set the battery on my workbench and connected a 50W 12 volt lamp to it.  The lamp lit up and the voltage dropped from 12.85 to 12.3  So now the battery is working fine.  I know that some of you think that the problem could be in the aircraft.  But the only thing that can make battery voltage drop is a very heavy load or short circuit.  I doubt that is case because there was no heat or smoke or sparks.

  I am going to hang onto the battery until after OSH, then do some more testing.  The battery is not going back into the airplane.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 08:04 AM 7/21/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Bob, I had already boxed up the battery with 2" of Styrofoam all around it.  The box is too big for your PO Box.  Can I send it to your house instead?  I have the address: 2*9 ***** Lane. 	


    I don't have a mailbox. All mail to a street address

    for me defaults to the box. If it's too big, it sits

    behind the counter.  Send it to the box. No sweat.



  	  Quote: 	
		    Before boxing it up, I checked the battery voltage once again.  It varied between zero and 12.5.  The problem seems to be getting worse.  By the time it gets to you, it might be a completely open circuit.  Do you still want me to send it?  I do not know what you can do with it except to cut the case open.  I know that you have many irons in the fire and hate to see you spend time and money for shipping. 	


    Education was never cheap . . . yeah . . . I'd like to

    have it.



 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 08:26 AM 7/21/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Occasional oversize items aren't normally an issue for USPS PO box subscribers. The clerk just leaves a key in the PO box to a parcel locker, where the package is placed.Â 

 But...

 It will likely be cheaper to re-box it in a 'flat rate' priority box like Bob described, than to pay even Standard Rate shipping on something heavy like a battery. 	


   OH YEAH . . . use the flat rate box. There's no

   'practical' weight limit on those boxes. It will

   fit in the medium, top load box with a published

   weight limit of 70 pounds.



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:42 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 10:23 AM 7/21/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Thanks Charlie, I misread Bob's post and thought that he was giving the dimensions of his PO Box.  I will use your suggestion.

 -

 Rampil,  the problem can not be the aircraft wiring because I was measuring voltage directly between the battery terminals.  Well actually on the 6mm stainless steel bolts that screw into the brass battery terminals.

 -

 Just to be 100 percent sure that I am not seeing things, I set the battery on my workbench and connected a 50W 12 volt lamp to it.  The lamp lit up and the voltage dropped from 12.85 to 12.3  So now the battery is working fine.  I know that some of you think that the problem could be in the aircraft.  But the only thing that can make battery voltage drop is a very heavy load or short circuit.  I doubt that is case because there was no heat or smoke or sparks.

   I am going to hang onto the battery until after OSH, then do some more testing.  The battery is not going back into the airplane. 	


   Nonetheless, it would be very useful to get

   cap/load test data on the battery after being

   in service that long. 



 

 

   Bob . . .

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:34 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

-------- Original message --------

From: user9253  

Date:07/21/2016  10:23 AM  (GMT-06:00) 

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com 

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure 

--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

Thanks Charlie, I misread Bob's post and thought that he was giving the dimensions of his PO Box.  I will use your suggestion.

-

Rampil,  the problem can not be the aircraft wiring because I was measuring voltage directly between the battery terminals.  Well actually on the 6mm stainless steel bolts that screw into the brass battery terminals.

-

--------

Joe Gores

Measuring on the screws isn't the same as measuring on the terminals. The battery might be bad, but you're still including 2 extra junctions (failure points) in the measurement. I've seen situations where I had to scrape the terminal itself to get the meter probe to make good contact, so...

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458485#458485

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

OK Bob, I will ship the PC680 to you via USPS flat rate box.

This morning I had checked the battery on the workbench and it lit up a 50 watt lamp and the voltage was 12.3

Late this afternoon I did another test.  I measured open circuit voltage of 12.8 VDC.  Then I connected the 50W test lamp but it did not light up.  The test lamp wires were clamped between the brass battery terminals and the M6 bolts and  washers, albeit only finger tight, but tight enough to resist the wires pulling out.  The terminals are clean, no corrosion.  While the lamp was connected, I put a voltmeter on the bolt heads: 0.5 volts.  While I was holding the meter probes on the bolts for several seconds, the lamp suddenly came on and the voltage went up to 12.4 volts.  There was no intermittent external connection.  Whatever the problem is, it is internal to the battery.  The failure might be related to ambient temperature.  It was cooler this morning and in the upper 80s this afternoon.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:03 am Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 05:50 PM 7/21/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 OK Bob, I will ship the PC680 to you via USPS flat rate box.  	


   Thanks!



 

 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

Bob,

I sent the battery along with a note.  If the battery appears to be dead, wait and check it again the next day.  Or apply pressure to the front and back side of the case.  There seems to be an intermittent internal open circuit.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 06:47 PM 7/25/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Bob,

 I sent the battery along with a note.  If the battery appears to be dead, wait and check it again the next day.  Or apply pressure to the front and back side of the case.  There seems to be an intermittent internal open circuit.



 --------

 Joe Gores 	


  Just picked it up today. Need to clear another

  battery project off the bench tomorrow and I'll

  get yours out to look at. thanks for the heads-up.



 

 

   Bob . . .

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:05 pm Post subject: Intermittent Battery Failure

At 06:47 PM 7/25/2016, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Bob,

 I sent the battery along with a note.  If the battery appears to be dead, wait and check it again the next day.  Or apply pressure to the front and back side of the case.  There seems to be an intermittent internal open circuit.

 	


    It didn't want to 'work' out of the box.



    I'll let it set for awhile. I was hoping

    to evaluate the state-of-the-chemistry

    but perhaps the stresses of shipping were

    too much. I'm imagining an internal weld

    fracture. We'll massage it a bit before

    I cut the case open.



 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Intermittent Battery Failure

Bob,

You might try cooling the battery.  If that does not bring it to life, try some gentle pounding with your fists.

_________________
Joe Gores

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