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LiFeO4 batteries?

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clivesutton

Joined: 23 Jan 2013
Posts: 187
Location: KENILWORTH

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:42 pm Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

I need to replace my PC680 AGM battery.  The weight advantage of choosing one of the new generation Lithium iron phosphate batteries is stunning (several kg).  The weight-saving comes at a price premium of course.



Does any Europa owner have one of these LiFeo4 batteries in service and in particular:



1) What is the typical life of these batteries (experience data preferred over product information)?

2) What UK supplier did you use?

3) If you have a Rotax 912S, which battery did you choose?

4) As a result of the weight save, did you have to relocate the battery to preserve W&B, and if so where did you site it?

5) Do the LAA care about the fitment of these batteries/any permit complications?



All comment appreciated

Clive

G-YETI

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:11 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

Hi Clive,

Answer to item 5 is that the LAA do care a lot. You may recall issues with

Li/Fe batteries in the Boeing Dreamliner.

You also need to be aware that your current regulator on the Rotax engine is

not designed for charging Li/Fe batteries.  I believe you will need some

added electronics to control this side of things.

Yes they are very light weight with superb performance but there are

additional problems and an enormous price tag for the moment at least.

You will probably require a Mod approval from the LAA.

Pete Jeffers  LAA rep to the Europa Club



--

rogersheridan(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:08 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

Here is current LAA policy:

[url=http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/Standard Mods/SM14337 Lithium batteries.pdf]http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/Standard%20Mods/SM14337%20Lithium%20batteries.pdf[/url]



According to Andy Draper:



 	  Quote: 	
		  SM14337 LiFePO4 Batteries

An aircraft with one of the EarthX Hundred series batteries (the largest available capacity) is currently on flight test and, all being well with it, this should allow all of the Hundred series batteries to be added to the Standard Mod.  Itâ€™s probably best to wait for this to be completed rather than to submit a mod application of your own,

	


Cheers,



Roger



 	  Quote: 	
		  On 30 Jul 2016, at 09:42, Clive Sutton <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Clive Sutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)>I need to replace my PC680 AGM battery.  The weight advantage of choosing one of the new generation Lithium iron phosphate batteries is stunning (several kg).  The weight-saving comes at a price premium of course.Does any Europa owner have one of these LiFeo4 batteries in service and in particular:1) What is the typical life of these batteries (experience data preferred over product information)?2) What UK supplier did you use?3) If you have a Rotax 912S, which battery did you choose?4) As a result of the weight save, did you have to relocate the battery to preserve W&B, and if so where did you site it?5) Do the LAA care about the fitment of these batteries/any permit complications?All comment appreciatedCliveG-YETIRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458899#458899

dg.watts(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:15 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

Clive,



The LAA have now accepted some LiFe batteries and they can be fitted as a standard mod only needing the approval of your inspector.



If you check on the LAA Engineering website, there is a Standard Modification SM14337 which has all the information you need.



Dave Watts

G-BXDY Classic Monowheel 



[quote] On 30 Jul 2016, at 09:11, Peter Jeffers <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Clive,

 Answer to item 5 is that the LAA do care a lot. You may recall issues with

 Li/Fe batteries in the Boeing Dreamliner.

 You also need to be aware that your current regulator on the Rotax engine is

 not designed for charging Li/Fe batteries.  I believe you will need some

 added electronics to control this side of things.

 Yes they are very light weight with superb performance but there are

 additional problems and an enormous price tag for the moment at least.

 You will probably require a Mod approval from the LAA.

 

 

 Pete Jeffers  LAA rep to the Europa Club

 

 --

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 222

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:24 pm Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

I have one in a motorbike, which has a Rotax engine with the same potential starter clutch issues as the 912 (only the parts are a fraction of the cost!). It resolves starting issues on that.

In a 'plane, I wouldn't be happy with the reduced amp-hour capacity, which won't keep systems alive for very long if the generator fails. Unless a similar AH capacity is installed, but the Li4Po is usually sold as a match for CCA, which comes at much low total AH capacity.

Duncan McF.

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   ----Original Message----

From: clive.maf(at)googlemail.com

Date: 30/07/2016 08:42

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: LiFeO4 batteries?



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Clive Sutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com>



I need to replace my PC680 AGM battery.  The weight advantage of choosing one of the new generation Lithium iron phosphate batteries is stunning (several kg).  The weight-saving comes at a price premium of course.



Does any Europa owner have one of these LiFeo4 batteries in service and in particular:



1) What is the typical life of these batteries (experience data preferred over product information)?

2) What UK supplier did you use?

3) If you have a Rotax 912S, which battery did you choose?

4) As a result of the weight save, did you have to relocate the battery to preserve W&B, and if so where did you site it?

5) Do the LAA care about the fitment of these batteries/any permit complications?



All comment appreciated

Clive

G-YETI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458899#458899



            - MATRONsp;         - NEW MATRONICS LIST WInbsp;                     -Matt Dralle, List Admin==========

Rick Moss

Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 96

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:23 am Post subject: Re: LiFeO4 batteries?

I had a Varley Red Top LI-5 fitted for nearly a year. It was ok, but not great. It needed a fair bit of "warming" before it would turn the engine over fast enough to start, especially on cold days. With a 5ah capacity I was very wary of charging phone/iPad without the engine running. After 10 months, my regulator packed up, although I have no reason to believe this was related to the battery fitted.



I took out the Varley and fitted a new PC680.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:30 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

Hi Clive,

I have a Shorai motorbike battery for my 912s Rotax engine.

Wonderfully light and powerful. Certainly needed in winter here. This morning it started without a problem with a -3C frost!

See;

Shoraipower.com

Due to the more powerful 912s compared to the 912 Rotax came out with a more powerful starter motor  to overcome the higher compression of the 912s. My 912s came with the 912 starter. Unfortunately because I have the engine frame for the Monowheel Classic there was inadequate room to fit the new starter motor. To overcome that I have to have a powerful battery for starting.

Answer to your questions,

1) What is the typical life of these batteries (experience data preferred over product information)?

Not sure but still good after three years

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) What UK supplier did you use?

	
Sorry not sure, look at website.

 	  Quote: 	
		  3) If you have a Rotax 912S, which battery did you choose?

	
Shorai LFX09L2-BS12 12v

 	  Quote: 	
		  4) As a result of the weight save, did you have to relocate the battery to preserve W&B, and if so where did you site it?

	
No, still ok on top of the starboard footwell. I have a Monowheel Classic

 	  Quote: 	
		  5) Do the LAA care about the fitment of these batteries/any permit complications?

	
Not sure about LAA. In NZ as far as I know all ok.

I will send the installation instructions shortly.

Cheers,

Tim

Tim Ward12 Waiwetu Street,

Fendalton,

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz (ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz)

Mob +64 210640221



On 30/07/2016, at 7:42 PM, Clive Sutton <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Clive Sutton" <clive.maf(at)googlemail.com (clive.maf(at)googlemail.com)>



I need to replace my PC680 AGM battery.  The weight advantage of choosing one of the new generation Lithium iron phosphate batteries is stunning (several kg).  The weight-saving comes at a price premium of course.



Does any Europa owner have one of these LiFeo4 batteries in service and in particular:



1) What is the typical life of these batteries (experience data preferred over product information)?

2) What UK supplier did you use?

3) If you have a Rotax 912S, which battery did you choose?

4) As a result of the weight save, did you have to relocate the battery to preserve W&B, and if so where did you site it?

5) Do the LAA care about the fitment of these batteries/any permit complications?



All comment appreciated

Clive

G-YETI





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=458899#458899

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ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:02 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

Pete,

The Dreamliner problem was not the battery itself but the battery charging unit. Overcharged it causing cells to overheat and runner away. They did increase the space between cells but the main remedy was to build circuitry that controlled the charging. They enclosed it with a vent overboard because the fumes were very nasty! 

Cheers, 

TIM

Sent from my iPhone 



[quote] On 30/07/2016, at 8:11 PM, Peter Jeffers <pjeffers(at)talktalk.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Clive,

 Answer to item 5 is that the LAA do care a lot. You may recall issues with

 Li/Fe batteries in the Boeing Dreamliner.

 You also need to be aware that your current regulator on the Rotax engine is

 not designed for charging Li/Fe batteries.  I believe you will need some

 added electronics to control this side of things.

 Yes they are very light weight with superb performance but there are

 additional problems and an enormous price tag for the moment at least.

 You will probably require a Mod approval from the LAA.

 

 

 Pete Jeffers  LAA rep to the Europa Club

 

 --

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:56 am Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

As mentioned in an earlier post the LAA have produced a Technical Leaflet on

LiFepo4 batteries.  Not all Lithium batteries are suitable.  The ones listed

in the leaflet have been checked to make sure they are compatible and will

operate safely in a Rotax installation without further electronics. One

important but possibly obvious point to note.  Most Lithium batteries have a

much higher cranking current capacity than an equivalent lead acid battery.

As a result most suppliers recommend a much lower capacity Lithium battery

as a direct replacement.  Although a much lower capacity Lithium battery

will start your Rotax it won't keep you supplied with electrics for very

long if the alternator fails.  Hence the restriction on the use of a small

Lithium battery in a Rotax 914 installation.  



Regards



Brian Davies 



--

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:41 am Post subject: Re: LiFeO4 batteries?

I have installed a Super B 7800 Lithium battery one year ago to replace my 5 year old Odyssey PC545. It works fine but is very sensitive to the ambient temperature; in summer it cranks the 912S faster than the Odyssey but as soon as the temp gets below 10 deg.C it seems to crank slower than the old PC545. I did not have the opportunity to try at freezing temperature up to now. 

The battery is installed in place of the Odyssey on the starboard footwell (picture attached) 

Regarding weight and balance, I saved an impressive 5 kg, 4 kgs for the battery itself and 1 kg after removal of the lead I had bolted to the tail to keep the balance within  limits.

Remi

F-PGKL Monowheel

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:49 am Post subject: Re: LiFeO4 batteries?

It seems my pic did not get trough 

Here it is

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:08 am Post subject: Re: LiFeO4 batteries?

We wrote an article in the Europa Flyer #82 about our EarthX installation (ETX36C).  It is still working fine after 2 years.  

We test capacity at each condition inspection with a load test.  Lead acid batteries drop to 1/2 capacity in two years.  The LiFePO4 the load test still is over 100 minutes and hasn't changed since we did a benchmark test when it was new. 

As Remi experienced, this past winter we saw slower cranking and had a few instances of kick back while starting. This was because the battery wasn't fully charged.  EarthX reminded us that their technology requires a charge voltage of at least 14 volts.  We added a diode in the C lead to achieve that.  Works great!

Jim & Heather

N241BW

Duncan McFadyean

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 222

Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: LiFeO4 batteries?

The experience on bikes to counter the poor low temperature performance with LiFeO4 batteries  is either to leave the headlight on for a short while or just an initial bout of start cranking, to get the battery internally warmed up.

In any case I find the Rotax starts better if cranked choke on and ignition off until oil pressure comes up. Then crank with ignition on, which would warm up a LiFe04 battery.

  	  Quote: 	
		  

Duncan McF.

----Original Message----

From: air.guerner(at)orange.fr

Date: 01/08/2016 15:41

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: Re: LiFeO4 batteries?



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Remi Guerner" <air.guerner(at)orange.fr>



I have installed a Super B 7800 Lithium battery one year ago to replace my 5 year old Odyssey PC545. It works fine but is very sensitive to the ambient temperature; in summer it cranks the 912S faster than the Odyssey but as soon as the temp gets below 10 deg.C it seems to crank slower than the old PC545. I did not have the opportunity to try at freezing temperature up to now. 

The battery is installed in place of the Odyssey on the starboard footwell (picture attached) 

Regarding weight and balance, I saved an impressive 5 kg, 4 kgs for the battery itself and 1 kg after removal of the lead I had bolted to the tail to keep the balance within  limits.

Remi

F-PGKL Monowheel





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459022#459022

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