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kkcmax(at)msn.com
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 Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:59 am Post subject: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/20/16 |
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Bill why do you want a Kolb all it seems that you like to do is find all the faults in the design
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: Kolb-List Digest Server <kolb-list(at)matronics.com>
Date: 9/21/16 2:19 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Kolb-List Digest List <kolb-list-digest(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/20/16
*
=========================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
=========================
Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor
such as Notepad or with a web browser.
HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter=2016-09-20&Archive=Kolb
Text Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter=2016-09-20&Archive=Kolb
================================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
================================================
----------------------------------------------------------
Kolb-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Tue 09/20/16: 9
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:54 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Patrick Ladd)
2. 10:05 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Larry Cottrell)
3. 10:14 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
4. 11:16 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Bill Berle)
5. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Rick Neilsen)
6. 03:00 PM - Larry Cottrell (william sullivan)
7. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Wayne Schneider)
8. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (John Hauck)
9. 05:35 PM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________
Time: 09:54:10 AM PST US
From: Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Hi, I stood my Mk3 on its nose gunning it into 90 degree turn on my first o
uting. After that I paid more attention to keeping the stick hard back when
taxying. The fist time I flew a passenger she woudn`t unstick and I just m
ade it out of my field over the hedge. I hadn`t put in extra `up` trim to c
ompensate. When I did, she was fine. I put both incidents down to incompete
nt piloting, not particularly to the high thrust line though that no doubt
contributed. Neither mistake happened again and as I suggested, normal pilo
ting skills took care of it. The high thrust line is something to be aware
of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat
________________________________
From: owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server(at)matronic
s.com> on behalf of Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
Sent: 19 September 2016 14:59:30
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Pat/All
One of my early reduction drive VW configurations I had a rather high thrus
t line. Flying solo I had to feed in power slowly so that I wouldn't nose o
ver. The first time I flew with a passenger I found I had to reduce power t
o keep the thrust from overpowering my elevator on takeoff. With a passenge
r at low air speeds with full power and full up elevator it would not pitch
up. At higher speeds it was just OK. I never.... attempted a go around wi
th a passenger. Actually I never flew with a passenger again in that config
uration. I switched fairly quick to the new VW engine mount that significan
tly lowered the engine. In this case the high trust line was down right dan
gerous.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com<mai
lto:patrickjladd(at)hotmail.com>> wrote:
thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handlin
g >>
No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher
than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal
flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your sp
eed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing a
pproach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim
as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________
Time: 10:05:43 AM PST US
From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Pat wrote:The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a
major problem. (I think) Pat
When you firewall the engine and the plane dives for the ground rather than
up, you have a problem!
Just saying,
Larry
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________
Time: 10:14:01 AM PST US
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net>
Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended.
The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks
of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious
problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are
formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are
not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________
Time: 11:16:41 AM PST US
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane
that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason
you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order
to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing
airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special
procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have
to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff,
or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be
designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The
world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside
the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that
you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________
Time: 01:59:55 PM PST US
From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Bill/All
Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You
have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it
will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can
but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing
this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add
power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or
add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full
power with locked brakes at least not for very long.
A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount
was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive
moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing
revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground
solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I
couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up
elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along
the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would
allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground.
Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I
would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this.
Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb
rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does
considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add
to the discussion.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
[quote]
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport,
"fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no
valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the
aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and
racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you
have special procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality
you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to
rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger
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victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:31 am Post subject: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/20/16 |
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Quote: " Bill why do you want a Kolb all it seems that you like to do is find all the faults in the design "
I promise to be polite about this. Forgive the length of this response, I want to put everything on the table so I'm not misunderstood, or wrongfully seen as "the Anti-Kolb" 
Those of us who have spent enough time in aviation (40 years for me) understand that every airplane has its faults, even the great designs like the Kolb. The designers themselves understand this, otherwise there would never be a "B model" of anything.
The experimental aircraft community exists, and thrives, because a lot of people like to build, modify, and tinker with airplanes to make them better for some specific use. Other people in the aviation community like to think of their airplanes as being perfect as-is, and they think it is a really bad idea to change anything about it. BOTH types of people are welcome in aviation.
For the record, I was not looking to find a fault in the basic Kolb design, my point was that you should not have to make LARGE compensations for things like thrust line, stall behavior, aircraft configuration, etc.on a SPORT airplane that is supposed to be easy to fly for the average Joe.
It is obvious that any airplane with a high thrust line will require the pilot to fly it a LITTLE differently. But as others have mentioned here, if you have to reduce power to take off without hitting a fence, or if applying power with flaps on a go-around makes the airplane try to dive into the ground and crash... those are BIG problems. Those BIG problems shouldn't be present on a sport airplane designed for the average Joe. I stand by that 100%.
| Quote: | From the previous posts here, I am guessing that most of those problems happened only when someone put on a different engine, high reduction drive, mounted the engine higher up, etc.
|
Now, to address the question of why I wanted a Kolb... it is a great aircraft, one of the very best of the "ultralight style" open-air designs. It has several things I really want in an off-road fun "dirt bike" sport airplane. The steel "H-section" reinforcements in the spars and tailboom make it stronger and more robust than many other UL style designs. The wing ribs are a properly engineered truss design, not 'battens". There is a properly engineered steel cage around the pilot. It has very good STOL performance right out of the box, and will have better STOL performance when I'm done tinkering with it. It is reported to have excellent flying characteristics, better than most all of the UL style airplanes. The wing folding mechanism is really really clever, damn near genius compared to the next best type.
Bill Berle, FireStar2 / HKS 700E being installed
Los Angeles, CA
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/20/16 |
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Properly rigged Kolb does not have bad habits. However, as any aircraft model/make it does have its own particular characteristics.
I mentioned I had to come back on power to successfully make my first take off after upgrading from 80 to 100 hp. That problem was caused by muscle memory, instinct. Immediately coming off power, slightly, solved that problem. I never experienced it the second takeoff or ever again.
Mark III pilots should know that the aircraft takes off and climbs better without flaps. Flaps tend to increase nose down pitch caused by full power go arounds. Something to be aware of.
Any increase in cockpit weight (fat passenger) only adds to the tendency to pitch down as power is increased.
Raising the thrust line above the standard position is hazardous.
I very seldom use my flaps for takeoff unless I need to break ground on an unimproved surface, i.e., mud, sand, heavy weeds, tall grass, wet field. Flaps are raised as soon as I break ground. I use flaps for every landing unless I am confronted with high winds, especially cross winds.
I learned the capabilities of Kolb aircraft by flying. I pushed them to their limits, or I thought I had. Maybe the limits were more mine than the aircraft. I don't have much experience flying any other UL aircraft than, Bert Howland's Honey Bee. GA aircraft - 20.0 hours in a 152. Qualified to fly all the Army single engine rotor craft that were in the inventory through 1980. To me, Kolb aircraft are "normal" aircraft. 
My cardinal rule when flying Kolbs to keep them above the stall speed, unless I want to execute a stall. I learned to cross check instruments flying helicopters and I keep a good cross check going when I fly Kolbs.
My experiences expressed above. Not recommendations for anyone else to fly like me.
john h
MKIII
Rock House, Oregon
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 9 Msgs - 09/20/16 |
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Bill: something that you may not be aware of - the original MKIII was sold with a 503. Less than 50 hp with 1 carb, a bit more than 50 with 2 carbs. Then came the Rotax 532/582 - 65 hp. Then the Rotax 912 - 80 hp. Then the Rotax 100 hp, then whatever the next permutation was, but anyway - lots more.
Pardon the preacher - but no damn wonder the airplane is now sensitive to a high thrust line and twice the horsepower it was originally sold with!!!!!
Put a 503 on the MKIII and go fly it and you will not have to make any compensations for anything. I have flown that exact aircraft 2 up, and it is utterly benign. It is a total pussycat. But that is not what we are discussing.
I take great delight in being able to own and drive a 1st generation Acura NSX. It is an automatic, it has 250 hp, and it is easily the best handling car I have ever driven. If I bolted a supercharger on it, I could easily get 400+ hp out of it. If I took it on a twisty road and it bit me bad, would it be the cars fault? I think not - it would be because I was not prepared to handle way more horsepower than the car was designed for.
Kolbs with way more horsepower than they were designed for are probably no different. Just sayin...
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_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. |
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