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Airmaster or Woodcomp?

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jglazener

Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 76
Location: Schoonhoven, Netherlands

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:04 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following:



Airmaster AP332 with Whirlwind blades and AC200 CS controller. Eur ~6000



Woodcomp SR3000 with CS5 CS controller. Eur 4000



Woodcomp SR3000 with manual controller. Eur 3500



Based on the price I can surmise thet the Airmaster is better, but is it twice as good, and more importantly, is the Woodcomp maybe good enough?



Then there is the choice between CS and manual which the Woodcomp offers. Manual is cheaper and as a first timer I want to keep things simple, so that has some appeal. The importer also kindly mentioned that he does not have good experiences with the CS setup, which is either refreshingly homest or an indication of a dud product.



So which is it to be? Your opinions and experiences would be highly appreciated!

_________________
Jeroen

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165

ken carp

Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Knoxville, TN

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:26 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Happy with Airmaster with Warp Drive blades.  Have 660 hours.  It is computer controlled with manual override and works well requiring no close attention...that is it is not a complication,just set cruise or climb or takeoff.  I damaged a prop blade and was able to get replacement promptly.  



Sent from my iPad

Ken Carpenter



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 9, 2016, at 10:04 AM, jglazener <j.glazener(at)planet.nl> wrote:

 

 

 

 I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following:

 

 Airmaster AP332 with Whirlwind blades and AC200 CS controller. Eur ~6000

 

 Woodcomp SR3000 with CS5 CS controller. Eur 4000

 

 Woodcomp SR3000 with manual controller. Eur 3500

 

 Based on the price I can surmise thet the Airmaster is better, but is it twice as good, and more importantly, is the Woodcomp maybe good enough?

 

 Then there is the choice between CS and manual which the Woodcomp offers. Manual is cheaper and as a first timer I want to keep things simple, so that has some appeal. The importer also kindly mentioned that he does not have good experiences with the CS setup, which is either refreshingly homest or an indication of a dud product.

 

 So which is it to be? Your opinions and experiences would be highly appreciated!

 

 --------

 Jeroen

 

 http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462236#462236

_________________
ken carpenter

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Jeroen, I do not know of anyone who has done a direct comparison between the Airmaster and the Woodcomp prop in controlled circumstances, although I first became interested in the Woodcomp when at the Europa Fly out to Prague in 2000, two XS 914s took off at the same time. Tom Justic with a Woodcomp prop dramatically out-climbed the Europa company one with an Airmaster - which caught my attention at the time and was instrumental in persuading me to go through the significant hassle of being the first to import one into the UK LAA fleet. 

       I have since come to believe that both are excellent propellers. The latest SR3000 has a totally redesigned hub mechanism which is beautifully robust, and the High twist 'W' blades are particularly efficient. (with my SR300-3W/914/XS/mono I can exceed Vne TAS on the level at 6000ft upwards). I do not think you would go wrong with either propeller, but I would certainly think that the Airmaster is not worth an extra E2000. What I would say is worth it is to have a constant speed controller. The manual might be very false economy. In a slippery plane like a Europa it is very easy to increase speed and RPM, especially if you are in some conflict situation where you are distracted. Overspeeding the engine is not a good thing. In fact a constant speed unit does above all keep things simple - you simply select take off, climb or cruise settings by press of a button, and the controller does the rest, whereas the manual controller needs more thought and pilot input to get things right. 

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ 

   

 

On 2016-11-09 15:04, jglazener wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "jglazener" <j.glazener(at)planet.nl (j.glazener(at)planet.nl)>



I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following:



Airmaster AP332 with Whirlwind blades and AC200 CS controller. Eur ~6000



Woodcomp SR3000 with CS5 CS controller. Eur 4000



Woodcomp SR3000 with manual controller. Eur 3500



Based on the price I can surmise thet the Airmaster is better, but is it twice as good, and more importantly, is the Woodcomp maybe good enough?



Then there is the choice between CS and manual which the Woodcomp offers. Manual is cheaper and as a first timer I want to keep things simple, so that has some appeal. The importer also kindly mentioned that he does not have good experiences with the CS setup, which is either refreshingly homest or an indication of a dud product.



So which is it to be? Your opinions and experiences would be highly appreciated!



--------

Jeroen



http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462236#462236

ectric.com

">www.buildersbooks.com

builthelp.com

lotstore.com

m

.matronics.com/contribution

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ics.com

.com

.matronics.com/contribution



	
 	
    [quote][b] [quote][b]

rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:51 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Jeroen,

I am very happy with my Airmaster prop and controller with the Warp Drive blades.  Set it for the mode of flight (takeoff, climb or cruise) and it works.  I have damaged the blades and the response by Airmaster has been excellent.  I can highly recommend them.



No experience with Woodcomp so I canâ€™t comment on them.



Blue skies & tailwinds,Bob BorgerEuropa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP3705 Lynchburg Dr.Corinth, TX  76208-5331Cel: 817-992-1117rlborger(at)mac.com (rlborger(at)mac.com)



On Nov 9, 2016, at 9:04 AM, jglazener <j.glazener(at)planet.nl (j.glazener(at)planet.nl)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "jglazener" <j.glazener(at)planet.nl (j.glazener(at)planet.nl)>I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following:Airmaster AP332 with Whirlwind blades and AC200 CS controller. Eur ~6000Woodcomp SR3000 with CS5 CS controller. Eur 4000Woodcomp SR3000 with manual controller. Eur 3500Based on the price I can surmise thet the Airmaster is better, but is it twice as good, and more importantly, is the Woodcomp maybe good enough?Then there is the choice between CS and manual which the Woodcomp offers. Manual is cheaper and as a first timer I want to keep things simple, so that has some appeal. The importer also kindly mentioned that he does not have good experiences with the CS setup, which is either refreshingly homest or an indication of a dud product.So which is it to be? Your opinions and experiences would be highly appreciated!--------Jeroen



 [quote][b] [quote][b]

neveyre(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:38 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Having fitted dozens of Airmaster's, and just recently fitted a Woodcomp  there is no comparison, Airmaster is more than twice as good [ mechanically]

   

   

  --

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Very pleased with my Woodcomp 3000/w and smart controller. I would just say that if you ding a blade you have to replace the lot. Ok if it's insurance.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:14 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Nev,  I guess that is not the new (this summer) design of SR3000, which has done away with cogs and is an impressive bit of kit. Regards, David 

   

 

On 2016-11-09 16:30, Neville Eyre wrote: [quote] Having fitted dozens of Airmaster's, and just recently fitted a Woodcomp  there is no comparison, Airmaster is more than twice as good [ mechanically]

  

  

 --

dpark748(at)icloud.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

David 

Your email corrupt??

Dave



Dave Park

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 9 Nov 2016, at 18:13, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:

 

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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Nev, I guess you are talking about the original SR3000 which had lots of cogs in it, not the new, completely different (as of this summer) design, which looks cogless and very impressive 

   

 

Nev, I guess you are talking about the original SR3000 design, which had lots of cogs in it, not the totally redesigned one(as from this summer) which has no cogs and looks very impressive. 

Regards, David Joyce 

PS. Sorry my previous attempt at tjis came out as garbage! 

  

On 2016-11-09 16:30, Neville Eyre wrote: [quote] Having fitted dozens of Airmaster's, and just recently fitted a Woodcomp  there is no comparison, Airmaster is more than twice as good [ mechanically]

  

  

 --

spcialeffects

Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 306
Location: Kent

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Hi David. This re-design is good news as i'll be ordering my Woodcomp early next year from Kevin Dilks. Have they done anything with the motor as i have heard of these running away to either fully fine or fully course.



Frank X- kit 165

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

I'm happy with the Airmaster CS with Warp Drive blades. This combinations seems to be very rugged. 



As some might remember I had cooling issues in high temperatures on the ground (XS with Rotax 914) which I got under control in the meantime by simple measures.



What I can definitely say is, that Martin from Airmaster is very helpful and answers any questions rapidly. The manuals are online in English and easy to understand.



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

I have a Woodcomp SR2000 fitted for about ten years and I am very happy with it, During a visit to the Woodcomp factory near Prague earlier this year I saw the latest SR3000 hub and it looked much simpler and more robust than my hub so constant developments have been carried out . I would have no hesitation in recommending it , Of course I appreciate that the Airmaster is a well made propeller but I have no personal knowledge or experience of this prop and I am sure it works well but it is significantly more expensive  

Tim H



 	  Quote: 	
		  

On 09 November 2016 at 20:58 Roland <schmidtroland(at)web.de> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Roland" <schmidtroland(at)web.de>



I'm happy with the Airmaster CS with Warp Drive blades. This combinations seems to be very rugged. 



As some might remember I had cooling issues in high temperatures on the ground (XS with Rotax 914) which I got under control in the meantime by simple measures.



What I can definitely say is, that Martin from Airmaster is very helpful and answers any questions rapidly. The manuals are online in English and easy to understand.



Regards

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matron======

	


> [quote][b] [quote][b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Frank, I think it is a complete redesign, including thepitch change stop system, which is now apparently much simpler to adjust. But if you want more detail youcould probably get it from Kevin Dilks. Regards, David 

   

 

On 2016-11-09 19:45, spcialeffects wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "spcialeffects" <spcialeffects(at)aol.com (spcialeffects(at)aol.com)>



Hi David. This re-design is good news as i'll be ordering my Woodcomp early next year from Kevin Dilks. Have they done anything with the motor as i have heard of these running away to either fully fine or fully course.



Frank X- kit 165





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=462246#462246

ectric.com

">www.buildersbooks.com

builthelp.com

lotstore.com

m

.matronics.com/contribution

ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ics.com

.com

.matronics.com/contribution



	
 	
    [quote][b] [quote][b]

jglazener

Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 76
Location: Schoonhoven, Netherlands

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Thanks all of you for your contributions. First conclusion is that everybody is happy with the propeller he has, whichever it is, with the possible exception of Nev. Of course Nev's opinion weighs a little more than that of ordinary mortals, so I will have to figure that into the equation. Still it's reassuring that nobody sees either of these options as an absolute no-go.

_________________
Jeroen

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Full disclosure, 

  

I am the US Dealer for Airmaster as well as the Europa.  So join us at Sun â€˜n Fun in Lakeland Florida again this year April 4-9, 2017 and get away from winter.   We will have the Europa Club officers Steve Pitt and Tony Wikens there so far, and many other Europa Owners as well as many Airmaster owners. 

  

As for performance: 

In a head to head comparison I could only find Pipistral owners with a Woodcomp as most of the Woodcomps in Florida did not hold up too well and were replaced. 

  

In a head to head climb and speed comparison of the Pipestral VS 912S/Woodcomp 2000, conventional gear with single pilot vs a Trigear 912S with two on board  Airmaster 332S/Whirlwind, the following was noted: 

The single pilot conventional with two blade Woodcomp 2000 was 5 knots slower minimum, and climb rate was nearly the same in comparison to the Airmaster AP332S  with Whirlwind blades.  They flew side by side to 5000 MSL in testing. 

  

More precise testing to follow I hope.  The Woodcomp owner wishes to make me a deal on a new AP332S Whirlwind as he found it quieter, smoother, and faster.   Iâ€™m trying to get him to finish the head to head competition.  The Pipestral dealer is also embarrassed by his manually adjustable propeller which he touted was the most efficient prop ever produced.  We ran right past him in climb and cruise.  

  

My poor aged Classic Trigear N12AY (with XS cockpit module and 914 FWF)  will do quite respectably with the Whirlwind blades also. 

Now that it is cleaned up a bit, waxed and polished, I can exceed 150 KIAS with one on board at 1,000MSL at 5500 RPM.  Normally I do 143-145 knots in the 1000  MSL pattern, and I can exceed 165 KTAS between 7500 and 10,000 MSL at 5500 RPM and lightly loaded.  But nobody cruises at 5500 or alone often.  Throttled to a normal 31 inches and 5000 RPM 143-145 KTAS at 7500- 10,000 is my normal cruise. 

Our Mono friends beat me with dusty wings and Warp Drive blades, but are even faster with the Whirlwind 64s.  By the way, same plane, same engine same conditions  and no polish, here are my 5000 RPM/31 inch, 10,000 MSL numbers AP332 Warp - 133 KTAS, AP420 Sensenich -  138 KTAS, AP332S Whirlwind - 144 KTAS.  The numbers donâ€™t lie. 

  

Keep in mind that the Warp Drive blades are not as fast as almost any blade out there.  Climb is nearly the same, but the lack of twist prevents achieving more  than about 130 (912S) and 140 (914) at 10,000 at cruise with a 914 Trigear.  The 912S is almost the same at pattern altitude at cruise, but suffers above 5000 MSL.   

  

The 912S is no speed demon above 3500 MSL.  So the older Warp Drive 912S equipped aircraft are fine fun fliers and with the Warp Drive/Airmaster and still cruise  respectably.  NO BLADE can beat the Warp Drive at durability.  It is tough.  The lighter blades of composite/wood/foam/or air inner structure canâ€™t hold up to the Warp.  You can mow the grass, wipe it clean and then take off with it.  On rocky strips it gets  seriously banged up and keeps on going.  So I still see folks wanting the Warp because it is so tough.  It is just not fast. 

  

The Airmaster (any type 332 or 400 series (with a US manufactured blade)) have an overhaul time frame of 2000  Hrs recommended, and no time limit provided serviced  annually. 

Woodcomp is 48 months or 1400 hours still according to their website.   Mean time between failure is not good for the older Woodcomps, however, letâ€™s give the  new prop hub some time to mature.  It is light and I really admire that. So if you donâ€™t mind learning Czeck, hoping their new hub is really reliable, and or waiting for parts or repairs, it is a great prop.   

  

Oh by the way, the Airmaster has never left me stuck out if there is an electrical problem.  It is remarkably reliable, unless a client accidentally over-torques  a bolt, or forgets the brushes which do need to be eventually replaced.  Controller problems are far and few between.  I am amazed how much blame gets put on the prop when auxiliary alternators, the older Dynon or Blue Mountain electromagnetic interference  is horrid.  The Airmaster wires and board are shielded now to help out our fellow electronic suppliers with their problems. 

  

Again, my apologies for being biased, with documentation.  See my website techniques section on selecting a prop, flight testing your propeller, and increasing  your performance with your Airmaster or any other prop. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

Custom Flight Creations, Inc. 

US Europa/Airmaster Dealer. 

  

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk

 Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 10:50 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Airmaster or Woodcomp? 

 

 

  

Jeroen, I do not know of anyone who has done a direct comparison between the Airmaster and the Woodcomp prop in controlled circumstances, although I first became interested in the Woodcomp  when at the Europa Fly out to Prague in 2000, two XS 914s took off at the same time. Tom Justic with a Woodcomp prop dramatically out-climbed the Europa company one with an Airmaster - which caught my attention at the time and was instrumental in persuading  me to go through the significant hassle of being the first to import one into the UK LAA fleet. 

       I have since come to believe that both are excellent propellers. The latest SR3000 has a totally redesigned hub mechanism which is beautifully robust, and the High twist 'W' blades  are particularly efficient. (with my SR300-3W/914/XS/mono I can exceed Vne TAS on the level at 6000ft upwards). I do not think you would go wrong with either propeller, but I would certainly think that the Airmaster is not worth an extra E2000. What I would  say is worth it is to have a constant speed controller. The manual might be very false economy. In a slippery plane like a Europa it is very easy to increase speed and RPM, especially if you are in some conflict situation where you are distracted. Overspeeding  the engine is not a good thing. In fact a constant speed unit does above all keep things simple - you simply select take off, climb or cruise settings by press of a button, and the controller does the rest, whereas the manual controller needs more thought  and pilot input to get things right. 

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ 

   

  

 

On 2016-11-09 15:04, jglazener wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "jglazener" <j.glazener(at)planet.nl (j.glazener(at)planet.nl)> I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: Airmaster AP332 with Whirlwind blades and AC200 CS controller. Eur ~6000 Woodcomp SR3000 with CS5 CS controller. Eur 4000 Woodcomp SR3000 with manual controller. Eur 3500   	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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		  I am rapidly getting to the point where I need to select my propeller to go with a 912ULS engine. Having already decided on an in flight adjustable, the choice seems to come down to the following: 	
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ploucandco

Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 69

Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

I got both airmaster warp drive and woodcomp 3000 wide blade with smartavionics controller on my Europa XS. 



Both are good props, but my preference is on the airmaster. The warp drive blades are really sturdy (more noisy than the other ones and slightly slower), but no way I would land on a field with limited clearance with a woodcomp or a whirlwind blades.



I am happy to be back with the airmaster warp drive. Working, easy, no maintenance and good enough performances!

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budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:30 pm Post subject: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

Jacques,

You should see the 332 with the Whirlwind blades.  Quite a jump in performance.  But not as tough of course.

As you said, good enough performance and it would be hard to justify upgrading the blades unless you wish to shame your Woodcomp friends.



Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

jglazener

Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 76
Location: Schoonhoven, Netherlands

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Airmaster or Woodcomp?

David, I would like to discuss this further offline, but can't get through on your email address. Could you drop me a line? j.glazener14(at)gmail.com

_________________
Jeroen

http://www.europaowners.org/main.php?g2_itemId=44165

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