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Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

At 09:58 PM 2/11/2017, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Bob,



 Just wondering where I should begin looking for more information on transponders.  Is there a source of information I could access that would answer questions, such as what are the minimum requirements for transponders?  What are the equipment standards for transponders?  What should I look for in a new transponders? Are there changes coming in the standardization?  What is this ADB(?) all about? I will appreciate your comments and suggestions.  If there are other questions I should be asking, please address them as well. Thank for considering my inquiry. 	


   I've not kept current with the requirements

   or all the features/options in the transponder

   world. I've posted this question to the

   AeroElectric-List. There are folks on tha

   service with a great deal more knowledge on

   this topic.



 

 

   Bob . . .

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

ADS-B will let you see other aircraft on a glass panel in your airplane.  And other pilots will be able to see you.  It is like having a radar screen in your cockpit.

ADS-B-OUT will be required in many areas in 2020.  If buying a new transponder, you might as well make sure it has ADS-B.  If you do not fly near big cities where ADS-B will be required, then you could buy a used transponder without ADS-B for well less than $1000.  Lots of used transponders are available as more and more aircraft are upgrading to ADS-B-OUT to meet the 2020 mandate.

  When shopping for a transponder with ADS-B, I recommend that you buy one that contains an internal 2020 compliant GPS receiver instead of two separate units.  Here are some models to consider:

APPAREO	STRATUS ESG

GARMIN	GTX335

GARMIN	GTX345

L-3 Avionics LYNX NGT-9000

Prices vary from $3000 to $9000

There are a lot more options and equipment to consider.  Research before buying.

_________________
Joe Gores

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

One additional comment. The external waas certified gps must also be on the approved list for the mode S transponder that it is feeding location information. At this point the Garmin 430w/530w are not on any approved list. This may change with software updates. Garmin did noy mention the 480 so it is currently an unknown.



On Feb 12, 2017 12:36 PM, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 There is no change in the airspace requiring a transponder. However, there is a new requirement for ADS-B equipment. There are two ways to comply. You can either get a Mode S transponder that has software to give the data output needed, or you can get a UAT unit that is tied to your Mode C transponder. Either variety has to have  either an internal GPS that meets requirements, or be connected to a certified WAAS IFR GPS. There are a number of sources for the information, including manufacturers. However, a lot will confuse the issue.

 The requirements are only to transmit the required data stream.

 

 There are no reception requirements, but that is another entire ball of wax, as to what traffic and weather you do or don't receive, and how you display it in the cockpit. Very useful, but not required.

 Kelly

 

 On 2/12/2017 11:59 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   At 09:58 PM 2/11/2017, you wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Bob,

 

 Just wondering where I should begin looking for more information on

 transponders.  Is there a source of information I could access that

 would answer questions, such as what are the minimum requirements for

 transponders?  What are the equipment standards for transponders?

 What should I look for in a new transponders? Are there changes coming

 in the standardization?  What is this ADB(?) all about? I will

 appreciate your comments and suggestions.  If there are other

 questions I should be asking, please address them as well. Thank for

 considering my inquiry.

 	
 

   I've not kept current with the requirements

   or all the features/options in the transponder

   world. I've posted this question to the

   AeroElectric-List. There are folks on tha

   service with a great deal more knowledge on

   this topic.

 

 

   Bob . . .

 

 	
 ====================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

To be clear, there *will be* a new requirement. In 2020, but not at the moment. The FAA certainly held to its traditional Pro Grade Obfuscation in writing the upcoming regs, but basically you'll need ADSB out, with a Certifiable WAAS position source. *And* you'll need to keep a traditional transponder with encoder, unless you go with a Mode S with Extended Squitter (remember offuscation?).



Opinions vary widely on whether ADSB prices will continue to fall, or start to rise, as 2020 approaches.

Charlie



On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym(at)aviating.com (kellym(at)aviating.com)>

 

 There is no change in the airspace requiring a transponder. However, there is a new requirement for ADS-B equipment. There are two ways to comply. You can either get a Mode S transponder that has software to give the data output needed, or you can get a UAT unit that is tied to your Mode C transponder. Either variety has to have  either an internal GPS that meets requirements, or be connected to a certified WAAS IFR GPS. There are a number of sources for the information, including manufacturers. However, a lot will confuse the issue.

 The requirements are only to transmit the required data stream.

 

 There are no reception requirements, but that is another entire ball of wax, as to what traffic and weather you do or don't receive, and how you display it in the cockpit. Very useful, but not required.

 Kelly

 

 On 2/12/2017 11:59 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   At 09:58 PM 2/11/2017, you wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Bob,

 

 Just wondering where I should begin looking for more information on

 transponders.  Is there a source of information I could access that

 would answer questions, such as what are the minimum requirements for

 transponders?  What are the equipment standards for transponders?

 What should I look for in a new transponders? Are there changes coming

 in the standardization?  What is this ADB(?) all about? I will

 appreciate your comments and suggestions.  If there are other

 questions I should be asking, please address them as well. Thank for

 considering my inquiry.

 	
 

   I've not kept current with the requirements

   or all the features/options in the transponder

   world. I've posted this question to the

   AeroElectric-List. There are folks on tha

   service with a great deal more knowledge on

   this topic.

 

 

   Bob . . .

 

 	
 ====================================

  -

 Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:47 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

Dion said:

<< At this point the Garmin 430w/530w are not on any approved list. This

may change with software updates. >>



I don't believe that statement is true, as both of these WAAS-equipped

devices ARE approved GPS sources for any of the Garmin ADS-B Out

transponders. I had a GTX-330 upgraded to 330ES (around $1200) by

Garmin, then connected to my 430W (cost about $600 for the shop to

rewire to add the GPS connector to the 330ES). This was fully approved,

and passed all the FAA's ADS-B Out testing. And a friend who had a 530W

and 330 did the same with his plane, and likewise passed the FAA

testing. I also know of several people who have upgraded to Garmin 335

and 345 transponders and used their 430W/530W as the GPS-WAAS source for

their ADS-B installations.



One possible source of confusion might be that the older non-WAAS

4XX/5XX models are NOT approved because they lack the WAAS GPS

capability.  A non-WAAS 430 (or 530) would need to be upgraded to 430W

(or 530W) to add the WAAS capability.  This can only be done by Garmin,

and I think they charge something like $3,000 (IIRC) to upgrade the

units.



But the bigger issue for Garmin 430W/530W owners is working with

non-Garmin ADS-B transponders...  I believe the issue is that (at least

at one time) the Trig ADS-B transponder (which is re-sold by Avidyne and

several others under their own company name) was NOT certified with the

430W/530W. Obviously, Garmin had no interest in pursuing certification

with someone else's equipment, and although I think Trig eventually

certified their own proprietary brand unit with the 430W/530W,

apparently the other companies that were re-selling the Trig unit did

not pursue certification with the Garmin either.  But check into it,

because this stuff changes very rapidly.



Jim Parker

------

jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

I don't believe there will be any "new" requirements in 2020 that aren't

already on the books.  The current rules state that after Jan 1, 2020,

you will still need a Mode-C / Mode-S transponder anywhere you need one

today -- that's not changing. But you will also need to EITHER upgrade

to a 1090ES transponder (one that provides the "Extended Squitter"

capability), OR that you would need to add a UAT transmitter (978UAT) --

in addition to your Mode-C / Mode-S transponder.  The UAT has to

integrate with your existing Mode-C / Mode-S transponder to pick up the

transponder squawk code (among other things) to include in the ADS-B OUT

data stream.  



If you remain within the US borders, and never fly above 18,000 feet,

978UAT is "good enough".  And since an "ab-initio" UAT solution

(including the WAAS GPS receiver) can be less expensive to install,

about 20-25% of the aircraft equipping for ADS-B are taking that option.



But, if you fly above 18,000 feet, you will be required to use the

1090ES version.  And if you fly internationally (Canada, Mexico,

Carribean, etc.), the odds are pretty good that you will also need the

1090ES version.  To this point, ICAO has not recognized 978 UAT as a

"standard", so it may wind up being a "US only" option.  Thus far, the

vast majority of aircraft upgrading to ADS-B OUT seem to be doing 1090ES

upgrades -- something like 75-80% of the ADS-B OUT fleet is 1090ES,

depending on whose data you use.  As for cost, those who already have a

certified WAAS-GPS receiver may find it far less expensive to go this

route.  My previous airplane that had a 430W and a GTX-330 cost me well

under $2,000 to upgrade to 1090ES by upgrading the 330 to 330ES ($1,200

through Garmin) and wiring the 430W to the 330ES ($500-600 to the

avionics shop doing that work). 



Jim Parker

------

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

Jim,



You are correct wit is that h regaeds to the Garmin transponders. The information that I have from Trig i and a Avidyne 540Ts that Garmin 430w/530w are not approved as the gps source unless they are updated per Garmin. The software update is not currently available and may never become available. My work around is a Trig/Dynon 261 mode s and an Avidyne 540T all certified and approved. Only draw back was the price.



Don

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 1:44 PM,  <jim(at)poogiebearranch.com (jim(at)poogiebearranch.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jim(at)poogiebearranch.com (jim(at)poogiebearranch.com)>

 

 Dion said:

 << At this point the Garmin 430w/530w are not on any approved list. This

 may change with software updates. >>

 

 I don't believe that statement is true, as both of these WAAS-equipped

 devices ARE approved GPS sources for any of the Garmin ADS-B Out

 transponders. I had a GTX-330 upgraded to 330ES (around $1200) by

 Garmin, then connected to my 430W (cost about $600 for the shop to

 rewire to add the GPS connector to the 330ES). This was fully approved,

 and passed all the FAA's ADS-B Out testing. And a friend who had a 530W

 and 330 did the same with his plane, and likewise passed the FAA

 testing. I also know of several people who have upgraded to Garmin 335

 and 345 transponders and used their 430W/530W as the GPS-WAAS source for

 their ADS-B installations.

 

 One possible source of confusion might be that the older non-WAAS

 4XX/5XX models are NOT approved because they lack the WAAS GPS

 capability.  A non-WAAS 430 (or 530) would need to be upgraded to 430W

 (or 530W) to add the WAAS capability.  This can only be done by Garmin,

 and I think they charge something like $3,000 (IIRC) to upgrade the

 units.

 

 But the bigger issue for Garmin 430W/530W owners is working with

 non-Garmin ADS-B transponders...  I believe the issue is that (at least

 at one time) the Trig ADS-B transponder (which is re-sold by Avidyne and

 several others under their own company name) was NOT certified with the

 430W/530W. Obviously, Garmin had no interest in pursuing certification

 with someone else's equipment, and although I think Trig eventually

 certified their own proprietary brand unit with the 430W/530W,

 apparently the other companies that were re-selling the Trig unit did

 not pursue certification with the Garmin either.  But check into it,

 because this stuff changes very rapidly.

 

 Jim Parker

 

 

 ------

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1926
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

Here is a link to the FAA's list of approved ADS-B Certified Equipment.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/equipment/

Unfortunately they do not keep it up to date.

_________________
Joe Gores

alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

As things stand, there are no requirements for anything beyond old fashioned mode C to be mandatory in any parts of Canada. And even that is only required in a very small portion of airspace.



On Feb 12, 2017, at 17:08, <jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com> <jim(at)PoogieBearRanch.com> wrote:



But, if you fly above 18,000 feet, you will be required to use the

1090ES version.  And if you fly internationally (Canada, Mexico,

Carribean, etc.), the odds are pretty good that you will also need the

1090ES version.

ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:39 pm Post subject: Everything I Need To Know About Transponders

My point is that it's not a current requirement; it *will be* in 2020.



On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:08 PM,  <jim(at)poogiebearranch.com (jim(at)poogiebearranch.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jim(at)poogiebearranch.com (jim(at)poogiebearranch.com)>

 

 I don't believe there will be any "new" requirements in 2020 that aren't

 already on the books.  The current rules state that after Jan 1, 2020,

 you will still need a Mode-C / Mode-S transponder anywhere you need one

 today -- that's not changing. But you will also need to EITHER upgrade

 to a 1090ES transponder (one that provides the "Extended Squitter"

 capability), OR that you would need to add a UAT transmitter (978UAT) --

 in addition to your Mode-C / Mode-S transponder.  The UAT has to

 integrate with your existing Mode-C / Mode-S transponder to pick up the

 transponder squawk code (among other things) to include in the ADS-B OUT

 data stream.

 

 If you remain within the US borders, and never fly above 18,000 feet,

 978UAT is "good enough".  And since an "ab-initio" UAT solution

 (including the WAAS GPS receiver) can be less expensive to install,

 about 20-25% of the aircraft equipping for ADS-B are taking that option.

 

 But, if you fly above 18,000 feet, you will be required to use the

 1090ES version.  And if you fly internationally (Canada, Mexico,

 Carribean, etc.), the odds are pretty good that you will also need the

 1090ES version.  To this point, ICAO has not recognized 978 UAT as a

 "standard", so it may wind up being a "US only" option.  Thus far, the

 vast majority of aircraft upgrading to ADS-B OUT seem to be doing 1090ES

 upgrades -- something like 75-80% of the ADS-B OUT fleet is 1090ES,

 depending on whose data you use.  As for cost, those who already have a

 certified WAAS-GPS receiver may find it far less expensive to go this

 route.  My previous airplane that had a 430W and a GTX-330 cost me well

 under $2,000 to upgrade to 1090ES by upgrading the 330 to 330ES ($1,200

 through Garmin) and wiring the 430W to the 330ES ($500-600 to the

 avionics shop doing that work).

 

 Jim Parker

 

 

 ------

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