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Top Ace

Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 25
Location: Montreal, Canada

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Installation of a M-14P on a CJ.,,, I know many of the CJ owners have installed the MP-14P engine in the United States,, which is or was approved by the FAA,,, 

Here in Canada,, Transport Canada does not recognize any other motor then the Housai, I would like to install the M14P on my aircraft.

I would need a field or an STC from them to install it here in Canada,,, 



I am aware of one MP-14 installed here in Canada !!! 1999,, which at the time, he was allotted an stc  based on a letter that was written from Nanchang at the time that this was a approved engine that could be installed. ( Lost, filed away, or misplaced copy)



Question if any one can help is,, does anyone have a copy, or have documentation from Nanchang that it is allowed. I sure would like to have this so I can present my case to Transport Canada.   

Have only owned this Cj since June,,, you folks have had them for 20 years plus,, appreciate any help you could send my way. 

David

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

I'm not an expert on how these things are handled in North America, but

surely an STC is approval for a modification onto a certified aircraft, and

of course the Nanchang is completely "experimental", and in the USA owners

have the fantastic good fortune to be able to do pretty much what they like

in terms of modifications and engine changes.



Interestingly we in the UK are allowed to fly Yak 50 and 52 only on the

basis that they are "ex-military", since we do not have any form of an

experimental category. The Nanchang, similarly, fits into the same category.



We have recently sold an M 14 P to a UK customer to put into his Nanchang,

but he is having a bureaucratic nightmare with UK CAA to authorise the

conversion. They have asked for stress calculations on the engine mounts;

proof that the engine will be sufficiently cooled et cetera.



I would be very doubtful whether there is any "official" documentation from

China authorising the installation of the Russian engine, but I could be

wrong!



Richard Goode



Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

 Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

+94 779 132 160.



--

jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:13 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Gentlemen, as I recall.  The CJ was first produced for the PLA, and it originally was delivered into Chinese military service with the Russian M14-P engine . But somewhere along the line they decided they didn't need that much horsepower for a trainer.  So China made a deal with Wilga of Poland to manufacture their own engine made by Housi of China. Under license from Wilga. So the Airplane and the engine mount are the same as the originally produced airframe that was originally produced with the M14-P engine. This was learned in a conversation with Ron Bailey of PHX at the time (1995) who was an early importer of the CJ's. He spent a lot of time in China during the time he was importing them to the USA. Since purchasing my CJ from him in early (1995). Several years after I purchased the CJ.  I lost track of Ron years ago. I believe he moved from PHX years ago, so can't verify this by contacting him. I did see a picture of some CJ's with the large paddle blade props on them that I believe Ron took them on one of his trips to China. The large square paddle blades would indicate that it was equipped with the M14-P.  And that was before anyone was installing M14-P engines in them here in the USA as I recall. I have had my CJ for 22 years. Ok maybe if anyone has contacts in China you could verify that the Airplane was produced originally with the M14-P.  Good luck on your search. Hope this small amount of info may help you. 

Gary.  In Las Vegas, Nevada.  CJ N22YK.  



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Jan 18, 2017, at 19:25, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I'm not an expert on how these things are handled in North America, but

 surely an STC is approval for a modification onto a certified aircraft, and

 of course the Nanchang is completely "experimental", and in the USA owners

 have the fantastic good fortune to be able to do pretty much what they like

 in terms of modifications and engine changes.

 

 Interestingly we in the UK are allowed to fly Yak 50 and 52 only on the

 basis that they are "ex-military", since we do not have any form of an

 experimental category. The Nanchang, similarly, fits into the same category.

 

 We have recently sold an M 14 P to a UK customer to put into his Nanchang,

 but he is having a bureaucratic nightmare with UK CAA to authorise the

 conversion. They have asked for stress calculations on the engine mounts;

 proof that the engine will be sufficiently cooled et cetera.

 

 I would be very doubtful whether there is any "official" documentation from

 China authorising the installation of the Russian engine, but I could be

 wrong!

 

 Richard Goode

 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom 

  Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com

 Iâ€™m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

 +94 779 132 160.

 

 --

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

I put a viper engine in my L29. We wrote the FAA to inform them and their response was, â€œItâ€™s experimental, do it right and donâ€™t get hurt.â€

Have fun. The beauty of being EXPERIMENTAL



[quote] On Jan 18, 2017, at 20:25, Richard Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I'm not an expert on how these things are handled in North America, but

 surely an STC is approval for a modification onto a certified aircraft, and

 of course the Nanchang is completely "experimental", and in the USA owners

 have the fantastic good fortune to be able to do pretty much what they like

 in terms of modifications and engine changes.

 

 Interestingly we in the UK are allowed to fly Yak 50 and 52 only on the

 basis that they are "ex-military", since we do not have any form of an

 experimental category. The Nanchang, similarly, fits into the same category.

 

 We have recently sold an M 14 P to a UK customer to put into his Nanchang,

 but he is having a bureaucratic nightmare with UK CAA to authorise the

 conversion. They have asked for stress calculations on the engine mounts;

 proof that the engine will be sufficiently cooled et cetera.

 

 I would be very doubtful whether there is any "official" documentation from

 China authorising the installation of the Russian engine, but I could be

 wrong!

 

 Richard Goode

 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom 

  Tel: +94 (0) 81 241 5137 (Sri Lanka)

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com

 Iâ€™m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

 +94 779 132 160.

 

 --

_________________
Dawg

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Hi Gary;



That's a really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not too 

accurate.



The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed Chinese 

design.   Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found unacceptable 

and replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko engine, the 

AI14R.   That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6 and,later, 

the 6A.

The propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden 

blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.

About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's into 

Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported from 

Texas)



Cheers;

Walt

--

Clouddog

Joined: 02 Jun 2016
Posts: 119
Location: Lebanon, TN

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:15 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Hey Top Ace. Your going about this all wrong. My suggestion is you move to the USA where as the boys in Brittan say "You Yanks are so lucky". Now if you have a house to sell, no worries eh! We have a bunch of folks supposedly moving to Canada after Trump is sworn in tomorrow. You have three choices of getting here. 1. Come down from Canada and wait years through legal immigration. 2. Sneak up from the south like 6 million have done. Better hurry, we are getting ready to build a wall! Rumor has it will go all the way to the Canadian border along the Eastern boarders of California, Oregon and Washington!. 3). Go to the Middle-East, become a refugee and be imported under some world government plan. You don't need any Identity, personal records etc. It's great. You get a house, clothing, a job, subsistence allowance for 5 years! It only cost the US taxpayers $80,000 per year per person imported. Oops, Hillary didn't get elected so that program may be in jeopardy. Be careful and don't wait to long on option 3. Trump has been talking to Germany, Austria, Belgium, France, Brittan, and the rest of the liberal- socialist countries and it's not working out to well. If you make it down across the boarder you might have to give up your wonderful, best in the world health care and pharmaceuticals but you will have your M14P with American ease. Hope this helps.......



On Jan 18, 2017 11:12 AM, "Top Ace" <topacedave(at)gmail.com (topacedave(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Top Ace" <topacedave(at)gmail.com (topacedave(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Installation of a M-14P on a CJ.,,, I know many of the CJ owners have installed the MP-14P engine in the United States,, which is or was approved by the FAA,,,

 Here in Canada,, Transport Canada does not recognize any other motor then the Housai, I would like to install the M14P on my aircraft.

 I would need a field or an STC from them to install it here in Canada,,,

 

 I am aware of one MP-14 installed here in Canada !!! 1999,, which at the time, he was allotted an stcÂ  based on a letter that was written from Nanchang at the time that this was a approved engine that could be installed. ( Lost, filed away, or misplaced copy)

 

 Question if any one can help is,, does anyone have a copy, or have documentation from Nanchang that it is allowed. I sure would like to have this so I can present my case to Transport Canada.

 Have only owned this Cj since June,,, you folks have had them for 20 years plus,, appreciate any help you could send my way.

 David

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465193#465193

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Top Ace

Joined: 07 Jun 2016
Posts: 25
Location: Montreal, Canada

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

That's one long wall,, We have our problems north of the border as well,,, and as many useless politicians,,  Were going to need one bigger swamp. 

lets at least enjoy our flying,,,  Top Ace

jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Hi Craig

Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the CJ originally   

And you very well may be correct on not being an M14-P installed. The paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the info might be true. But I stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I stumble over Florida way one of these days, I owe you a ðŸº or ðŸ» two.  Later.  



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Jan 19, 2017, at 11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Gary;

 

 That's a really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not too accurate.

 

 The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed Chinese design.   Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found unacceptable and replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko engine, the AI14R.   That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6 and,later, the 6A.

 The propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.

 About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's into Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported from Texas)

 

 Cheers;

 Walt

 

 

 --

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Hi Gary;



I stand corrected!   The original CJ engine was an 8 cyl., horizontally 

opposed Czech built unit.

By the way my name is not Craig and you would have to go North to by me a 

beer.

Sounds good to me but maybe wait until it warms up and I will buy you a 

Canadian beer.



Walt



--

jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:43 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Ooops. Sorry Walter.  Once again my error.  But the beer still sounds.  Must be y week for screwing up.  LOL.  AND YES WARMER WEATHER.    Gary



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 19, 2017, at 19:17, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 and

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

No sweat Gary,



Done the same and have this distressing habit of proof-reading AFTER I hit 

send ------not getting smarter??



Walt



--

jill(at)m-14p.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:48 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

As long as we are trying to keep the history correct, the prop hub installed

on the engine would have to be for a splined shaft.  So it would not be a

V-530 hub, but the PZL US-122000 hub for the Wilga.



Have a great weekend,



Jill 

M-14P, Inc.

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris B  

engine.  Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the  

engine / prop wouldn't match up.  That engine was use in one other East  block 

aircraft prototype and never any place else.  That was 1958, in 59  they 

changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop.  As  far as I can tell, China 

has never made horizontal opposed aircraft  engine.

 

The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very  

pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which the  

Soviets were offering.  The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that. 

 

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

 

In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

ggg6(at)att.net writes:






Hi  Craig

Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the  CJ 

originally   

And you very well may be correct on not being an  M14-P installed. The 

paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the  info might be true. But I 

stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I  stumble over Florida way one 

of these days, I owe you a ðŸº or ðŸ» two.   Later.  



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 19, 2017, at  11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 

  

 Hi Gary;

 

 That's a really cute story, kind of like a  fairy tale, nice, but not too 

accurate.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The original engine  intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed 

Chinese design.    Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found 
	


unacceptable and  replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko engine, 

the  AI14R.   That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6  

and,later, the 6A.

 	  Quote: 	
		   The propellor installation was the stock, original  V530 hub and wooden 

blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced  them.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first  CJ's into 

Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported  from 
	


Texas)

[quote] 

 Cheers;

 Walt

 

 

  --

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Jill:



The number you are quoting for the PZL Wilga prop. hub is actually the 

design number of the blade, not the hub.

If you could take the time and actually look at one you will see the hub 

design number is V530 - T35.   The M14P uses the same BASIC design number 

but

with a very different dash number.



Walt



--

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Thanks Pappy;

  

 I had forgotten the name of the Czech engine (Doris B).   

 The final radial engine choice was the AI14R,  later  AI14RA   Translation : Alexander Ivchenco, Model 14, Radial, Air  start. 

   There was a later version with electric start:  AI14RC.    Cylinders manufactured for the C engine will not work on the A due no provision  for air injection.

  

 Cheers;

 Walt

  

  

 From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) 

  Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 3:14 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval

  



  Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris B  engine.  Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the engine  / prop wouldn't match up.  That engine was use in one other East block  aircraft prototype and never any place else.  That was 1958, in 59 they  changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop.  As far as I can tell,  China has never made horizontal opposed aircraft engine.

  

 The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very  pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which the  Soviets were offering.  The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that. 

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  ggg6(at)att.net writes:

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net>



Hi    Craig

Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the    CJ originally   

And you very well may be correct on not being an    M14-P installed. The paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the    info might be true. But I stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I    stumble over Florida way one of these days, I owe you a ðŸº or ðŸ» two.     Later.  



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Jan 19, 2017, at    11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca>

    

 Hi Gary;

 

 That's a really cute story, kind of like a    fairy tale, nice, but not too accurate.

 

 The original engine    intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed Chinese design.      Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found unacceptable and    replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko engine, the    AI14R.   That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6    and,later, the 6A.

 The propellor installation was the stock, original    V530 hub and wooden blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced    them.

 About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first    CJ's into Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported    from Texas)

 

 Cheers;

 Walt

 

 

    --

GeorgeCoy

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:35 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Walt and Pappy, 

The other aircraft that used the â€œPraga Dorisâ€ engine was the L60 Brigadier. A Czech version of the German Fiesler Storch. The engine was built in a factory in Prague thus the â€œPraga â€œ designation. As I recall it had a 250 hr. TBO and looked like a copy ofÂ  a Continental O-300. Most of the L-60 aircraft were later fitted with the AI14RA engine.

 You may remember the L-60 that I flew to Sun-N-Fun back in 1999. It had an AI14 engine and was very slow, but an excellent short field aircraft. It came to an ignominious end as the fellow who bought it from me tied it out in a field in Connecticut and has just let it rot into the ground. I think I may also have some Czech language manuals on the Doris engine as well.

I never realized that it was part of the history of the CJ6.

George Coy

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter Lannon

Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 10:18 PM

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

 

Thanks Pappy;



 



I had forgotten the name of the Czech engine (Doris B).   



The final radial engine choice was the AI14R,  later AI14RA   Translation : Alexander Ivchenco, Model 14, Radial, Air start. 



There was a later version with electric start:  AI14RC.   Cylinders manufactured for the C engine will not work on the A due no provision for air injection.



 



Cheers;



Walt



 



 



From: cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) 



Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 3:14 PM



To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 



Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval



 

Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris B engine.  Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the engine / prop wouldn't match up.  That engine was use in one other East block aircraft prototype and never any place else.  That was 1958, in 59 they changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop.  As far as I can tell, China has never made horizontal opposed aircraft engine.



 



The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which the Soviets were offering.  The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that. 



 



Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



 



In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net) writes:

[quote]

--> Yak-List message posted by: Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net)>



Hi Craig

Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in the CJ originally   

And you very well may be correct on not being an M14-P installed. The paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me feel the info might be true. But I stand corrected. Thank You for the info. If I stumble over Florida way one of these days, I owe you a 🍺 or 🍻 two.  Later.  



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Jan 19, 2017, at 11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> wrote:

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>

 

 Hi Gary;

 

 That's a really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not too accurate.

 

 The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6 cyl. horiz. opposed Chinese design.   Installed on the first prototype it was quickly found unacceptable and replaced with the early version of the original Ivchenko engine, the AI14R.   That engine went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6 and,later, the 6A.

 The propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.

 About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's into Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported from Texas)

 

 Cheers;

 Walt

 

 

 --

jill(at)m-14p.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Walt and Group,

 

Good morning.  I am a stickler for facts and a thank you to Walt for prompting me to back up my statements with facts.  (I am a much worse grammar cop and that is how I ended up writing for the Red Alert.)

 

So, I went digging through the library and the shop before my first cup of coffee, this morning.  Here is what I have to add to the discussion:

 

1.  The PZL US1220000 is the correct name for the Wilga prop, not just the blades.  It is listed on the FAA Type Certificate data sheet in this manner.  Nowhere on the 2 Wilga hubs in the shop is there a stamping "V-530".

2.  The Yaks/M-14P use the Vpered V-530  T/A Propeller.  

3.  The CJ uses a J9-GI Propeller type.  The stamping on this CJ hub we are overhauling is stamped with 2 Chinese characters, a dash and then 530.  I do not think the factory in Russia manufactured these hubs.  Again, the CJ hub is for a splined prop shaft.  We do install V-530 blade collars in the hub to be able to use our V-530J, W-530 or stock V-530 blades in the Chinese hub - no problem.

 

My question is how people fill out their Airworthiness Application in the Propeller blocks for Manufacturer and Make/Model?

 

If you are really curious, I have posted documentation and pictures about this topic on our M-14P, Inc. Facebook page because I don't know how to do it here.  After 20+ years in this business, there is still a lot I do not know!  : )

 

Going to get my coffee, now.  Have a great weekend!

 

Jill

M-14P, Inc.

 

 

Time: 06:49:07 PM PST US

From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)>

Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

 

 

Jill:

 

The number you are quoting for the PZL Wilga prop. hub is actually the 

design number of the blade, not the hub.

If you could take the time and actually look at one you will see the hub 

design number is V530 - T35.   The M14P uses the same BASIC design number 

but

with a very different dash number.

 

Walt

 

 

Jill Gernetzke

M-14P, Inc.

4905 Flightline Drive 

Kingman, AZ  86401

928-681-4400

www.m-14p.com

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

You know, this is why love this list!  I kind of love details but I  also 

love history.  There is "history" in these part and design  numbers.  They 

represent a change.  A change from one idea to another  better idea for a 

different need.  Years ago I found a book in a London  bookstore, buried back 

behind everything, titled "China Today:  Aviation  Industry".  In it I found 

the details about the design of the CJ-6.   The first thing I learned was it 

was not a copy of the Yak-18A.  Nowhere  near it.  Also though the book, I 

ended up meeting Cheng Bushi who along  with one other guy, was its designer. 

 From him I learn a great deal about  the concepts in the design.  I was 

even able to give him his first ride  ever in the CJ-6 in OSH 2003.

 

Anyway back to the book.  On page 109, it states "Ye Xulun proposed to  

retro fit the CJ-6 with "Soviet A-14P" engine and F530D35 propeller."   That's 

where I got my number from.  Now all the writers of this book plus  editors 

are Chinese, and most likely English is their second language plus you  have 

the dropping of letters just due to typing errors.  I have seen the  "AI" 

on an engine designation before but never would have attributed to  

"Alexander Ivchenco".  So this is a historical nugget for me.   Thanks!

 

Question:  Where did the "M" designation come from?  Is that just  for the 

engines made by AeroStar or something else?

 

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

PS BTW had a fantastic 9 days in England where I got to sit in (they  

wouldn't give me keys) in a MK-9 Spitfire at historic Biggen Hill then sit in  

R4118 Hurricane at Shuttleworth  Peter Nunn give me a complete cockpit  check 

out.  (this time they would not open the hangar door!)   Unfortunately 

gained 4lbs eating Bangers & mash!  

 

 

In a message dated 1/20/2017 10:20:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

wlannon(at)shaw.ca writes:



 

Thanks Pappy;

 

I had forgotten the name of the Czech engine (Doris B).   

The final radial engine choice was the AI14R,  later  AI14RA   Translation 

: Alexander Ivchenco, Model 14, Radial, Air  start. 

 

 

There was a later version with electric start:  AI14RC.    Cylinders 

manufactured for the C engine will not work on the A due no  provision for air 

injection.

 

Cheers;

Walt

 

 

From: _cjpilot710(at)aol.com_ (mailto:cjpilot710(at)aol.com)  

 

Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 3:14 PM

To: _yak-list(at)matronics.com_ (mailto:yak-list(at)matronics.com)  

Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval

 



 

Actually the original engine the CJ-6 prototype was Czechoslovakia Doris  B 

engine.  Evidently the airplane could not reach design speed and the  

engine / prop wouldn't match up.  That engine was use in one other East  block 

aircraft prototype and never any place else.  That was 1958, in 59  they 

changed to the Soviet A-14P, and "F530D35" prop.  As far as I can  tell, China 

has never made horizontal opposed aircraft engine.

 

The Chinese designers had a tough time convincing their government (very  

pro Russia at the time) that the CJ-6 was better than the Yak 18A which the  

Soviets were offering.  The A-14p (or HS-6) took care of that. 

 

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

 

 

In a message dated 1/19/2017 7:57:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  

ggg6(at)att.net writes:






Hi  Craig

Yes I am aware of the plan to install a six cyl opposed engine in  the CJ 

originally   

And you very well may be correct on not  being an M14-P installed. The 

paddle prop pic that I saw helped to make me  feel the info might be true. But I 

stand corrected. Thank You for the info.  If I stumble over Florida way one 

of these days, I owe you a ðŸº or ðŸ»  two.  Later.  



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jan 19,  2017, at 11:00, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

  

 

 

 Hi Gary;

 

 That's a  really cute story, kind of like a fairy tale, nice, but not too 

 accurate.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The original engine intended for the CJ6 was a 6  cyl. horiz. opposed 

Chinese design.   Installed on the first  prototype it was quickly found 
	


unacceptable and replaced with the early  version of the original Ivchenko engine, 

the AI14R.   That engine  went into Chinese production as the Huosai 6 

and,later, the 6A.

 	  Quote: 	
		   The  propellor installation was the stock, original V530 hub and wooden  

blades.  Chinese designed blades eventually replaced them.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    About the same time as your friend (1993) I imported the first CJ's into 

 Canada directly from China (there were two already here but imported from  
	


Texas)

[quote] 

 Cheers;

 Walt

 

 

  --

wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:30 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Jill, Pappy & Group;

  

 I guess I too am a stickler for facts but in this case Jillâ€™s fact is the  real one, the PZL number (US 122000) is the propellor type.  My apology  Jill!  It is not in compliance with Hamilton Standard practice but then it  is not an HS prop.  Can I claim my screw up as an â€œalternate  factâ€?   Seems that now has official sanction in certain places.

  

 Back to the original question:   Is the Type 530 hub used only on  the M14P engines?   The answer is still no.   Some photos  attached of a number of CJ and Wilga prop. hubs showing the Type/Part  numbers.

  

 Photos 1 â€“ 3 are CJ6 hubs:  #1 is a very early (in CJ production)  Russian manufactured unit.  #2 is early Chinese manufacture - note the  Chinese characters preceding the number.  #3 is the final Chinese  production.

 Photos 4 â€“ 6 are PZL Wilga hubs (presumably all of Polish origin).

 All of these hubs are physically interchangeable (though not legally for  the certificated version of the Wilga).

  

 Of course none of the above hubs can be installed on the M14P.    The Type 530 probably originated in the 1950â€™s with the production of the  Ivchenko engine but possibly even earlier for other prop. shaft type  engines.

 The M14P did not exist until approx. 20 years later.  The flange mount  arrangement was a major change that probably should have warranted a new type  number but given that the majority of internal components were the same they may  have concluded it was not necessary.  In any case it is impossible to  interchange.

  

 Due to large size of first 3 photos only those are attached here.   Others to follow in separate email.

  

 Walt

  

  

  

 

    

  From: Jill Gernetzke (jill(at)m-14p.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 6:58 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval

  



   

Walt and Group, 

  

Good morning.  I am a stickler for facts and a thank you  to Walt for prompting me to back up my statements with facts.  (I am a much  worse grammar cop and that is how I ended up writing for the Red  Alert.) 

  

So, I went digging through the library and the shop before my  first cup of coffee, this morning.  Here is what I have to add to the  discussion: 

  

1.  The PZL US1220000 is the correct name for the Wilga  prop, not just the blades.  It is listed on the FAA Type Certificate data  sheet in this manner.  Nowhere on the 2 Wilga hubs in the shop is there a  stamping "V-530". 

2.  The Yaks/M-14P use the Vpered V-530  T/A  Propeller.   

3.  The CJ uses a J9-GI Propeller type.  The  stamping on this CJ hub we are overhauling is stamped with 2 Chinese characters,  a dash and then 530.  I do not think the factory in Russia manufactured  these hubs.  Again, the CJ hub is for a splined prop shaft.  We do  install V-530 blade collars in the hub to be able to use our V-530J, W-530 or  stock V-530 blades in the Chinese hub - no problem. 

  

My question is how people fill out their Airworthiness  Application in the Propeller blocks for Manufacturer and  Make/Model? 

  

If you are really curious, I have posted documentation and  pictures about this topic on our M-14P, Inc. Facebook page because I don't know  how to do it here.  After 20+ years in this business, there is still a lot  I do not know!  : ) 

  

Going to get my coffee, now.  Have a great  weekend! 

  

Jill 

M-14P, Inc. 

  

  

Time: 06:49:07 PM PST US 

From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> 

Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval 

  

  

Jill: 

  

The number you are quoting for the PZL Wilga prop. hub is  actually the  

design number of the blade, not the hub. 

If you could take the time and actually look at one you  will see the hub  

design number is V530 - T35.   The M14P uses the  same BASIC design number  

but 

with a very different dash number. 

  

Walt 

  

  

Jill  Gernetzke 

M-14P,  Inc. 

4905 Flightline Drive   

Kingman, AZ   86401 

928-681-4400 

www.m-14p.com 

 

    	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:30 am Post subject: Nanchang Company, M14P approval

Post # 2    Remaining photos attached.

  

 Last 2 photos are two overhauled CJ props and one in process.  Anyone  interested in these please contact off list.

  

 Walt

  

  

   From: Jill Gernetzke (jill(at)m-14p.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 6:58 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval

  



   

Walt and Group, 

  

Good morning.  I am a stickler for facts and a thank you  to Walt for prompting me to back up my statements with facts.  (I am a much  worse grammar cop and that is how I ended up writing for the Red  Alert.) 

  

So, I went digging through the library and the shop before my  first cup of coffee, this morning.  Here is what I have to add to the  discussion: 

  

1.  The PZL US1220000 is the correct name for the Wilga  prop, not just the blades.  It is listed on the FAA Type Certificate data  sheet in this manner.  Nowhere on the 2 Wilga hubs in the shop is there a  stamping "V-530". 

2.  The Yaks/M-14P use the Vpered V-530  T/A  Propeller.   

3.  The CJ uses a J9-GI Propeller type.  The  stamping on this CJ hub we are overhauling is stamped with 2 Chinese characters,  a dash and then 530.  I do not think the factory in Russia manufactured  these hubs.  Again, the CJ hub is for a splined prop shaft.  We do  install V-530 blade collars in the hub to be able to use our V-530J, W-530 or  stock V-530 blades in the Chinese hub - no problem. 

  

My question is how people fill out their Airworthiness  Application in the Propeller blocks for Manufacturer and  Make/Model? 

  

If you are really curious, I have posted documentation and  pictures about this topic on our M-14P, Inc. Facebook page because I don't know  how to do it here.  After 20+ years in this business, there is still a lot  I do not know!  : ) 

  

Going to get my coffee, now.  Have a great  weekend! 

  

Jill 

M-14P, Inc. 

  

  

Time: 06:49:07 PM PST US 

From: "Walter Lannon" <wlannon(at)shaw.ca (wlannon(at)shaw.ca)> 

Subject: Re: Nanchang Company, M14P  approval 

  

  

Jill: 

  

The number you are quoting for the PZL Wilga prop. hub is  actually the  

design number of the blade, not the hub. 

If you could take the time and actually look at one you  will see the hub  

design number is V530 - T35.   The M14P uses the  same BASIC design number  

but 

with a very different dash number. 

  

Walt 

  

  

Jill  Gernetzke 

M-14P,  Inc. 

4905 Flightline Drive   

Kingman, AZ   86401 

928-681-4400 

www.m-14p.com 

 

    	 		 			 				 			 		 		 			

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