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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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 Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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I have a Velocity (pusher) that has the original design with two NACA scoops in the roof of the airplane and this provides good cooling in flight however on the ground and at low altitudes it is a bit lacking during times with hot OAT (where I fly).
Since I recently retrofitted a turbocharger intercooler I also installed a third cooling air scoop and dual 10 inch Spal automobile cooling fans that blast 650 CFM each and these fans will both cool the intake air charge and they will also add supplemental cooling to the engine when energized.
So will this new design I will have solved my hot OAT ground/low altitude cooling issue however I am concerned that during really cold operations it might be too much engine cooling.
Is it possible to reverse the fans and the airflow so when it is really cold outside the fans will prevent the third cooling duct from providing too much cooling air to the engine?
The fans have a on/off switch that utelize a relay (on relay for each fan) to complete the circuit to electrify the fans... in other words each fan has a heavy gauge wire with an inline fuse for protection and there is a cockpit panel CB protected "accessory feed" (sorry... automotive term.) that provides power through the ON/OFF switch to the automotive relay and when the switch is ON the accessory feed completes the circuit and the relay closes its contacts and the circuit for the heavy gauge wire is completed and the fans run.
So is it possible to design a system that can reverse the fans?
This system would have to utilize four relays (two for each fan) that would change both the 12 VDC power feed and the ground for each fan.
I imagine that there is a duplex relay box out there in the world for such a need.
Does anyone know of such a design /contraption?
THANKS!!!
Bill Hunter
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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At 12:11 PM 3/12/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | I have a Velocity (pusher) that has the original design with two NACA scoops in the roof of the airplane and this provides good cooling in flight however on the ground and at low altitudes it is a bit lacking during times with hot OAT (where I fly).
Since I recently retrofitted a turbocharger intercooler I also installed a third cooling air scoop and dual 10 inch Spal automobile cooling fans that blast 650 CFM each and these fans will both cool the intake air charge and they will also add supplemental cooling to the engine when energized.
So will this new design I will have solved my hot OAT ground/low altitude cooling issue however I am concerned that during really cold operations it might be too much engine cooling.
Is it possible to reverse the fans and the airflow so when it is really cold outside the fans will prevent the third cooling duct from providing too much cooling air to the engine? |
Need more info. Are these permanent magnet
motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming
out that can be driven either polarity.
One connection produces CCW rotation, reversed
connection produces CW rotation.
| Quote: | | The fans have a on/off switch that utelize a relay (on relay for each fan) to complete the circuit to electrify the fans... in other words each fan has a heavy gauge wire with an inline fuse for protection and there is a cockpit panel CB protected "accessory feed" (sorry... automotive term.) that provides power through the ON/OFF switch to the automotive relay and when the switch is ON the accessory feed completes the circuit and the relay closes its contacts and the circuit for the heavy gauge wire is completed and the fans run. |
These sound like modern, automotive fans
that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse
rotation, you need access to the inner workings
of the electronics . . . generally hard if not
totally impractical.
Can you give us a link to the description of the
products? how much current do they draw?
Bob . . .
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donvansanten(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:25 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Instead of reversing the fans I would try reducing the exit size where the cooling ait leaves the cowl. This could be as simple as tapeing over part ot the exit.Another way to keep the engine warm during cold conditions that is commonly done to RV av is to cover up to one half ot the oil cooler inlet with a removable plate.
On Mar 12, 2017 12:13, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote: | Quote: | At 12:11 PM 3/12/2017, you wrote:
| Quote: | I have a Velocity (pusher) that has the original design with two NACA scoops in the roof of the airplane and this provides good cooling in flight however on the ground and at low altitudes it is a bit lacking during times with hot OAT (where I fly).Â
Since I recently retrofitted a turbocharger intercooler I also installed a third cooling air scoop and dual 10 inch Spal automobile cooling fans that blast 650 CFM each and these fans will both cool the intake air charge and they will also add supplemental cooling to the engine when energized. Â
So will this new design I will have solved my hot OAT ground/low altitude  cooling issue however I am concerned that during really cold operations it might be too much engine cooling.Â
Is it possible to reverse the fans and the airflow so when it is really cold outside the fans will prevent the third cooling duct from providing too much cooling air to the engine? |
Need more info. Are these permanent magnet
motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming
out that can be driven either polarity.
One connection produces CCW rotation, reversed
connection produces CW rotation.
| Quote: | | The fans have a on/off switch that utelize a relay (on relay for each fan)  to complete the circuit to electrify the fans... in other words each fan has a heavy gauge wire with an inline fuse for protection and there is a cockpit panel CB protected "accessory feed" (sorry... automotive term.) that provides power through the ON/OFF switch to the automotive relay and when the switch is ON the accessory feed completes the circuit and the relay closes its  contacts and the circuit for the heavy gauge wire is completed and the fans run. |
These sound like modern, automotive fans
that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse
rotation, you need access to the inner workings
of the electronics . . . generally hard if not
totally impractical.
Can you give us a link to the description of the
products? how much current do they draw?
Bob . . .
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henry(at)pericynthion.org
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:58 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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My guess is that if you can just turn the fans off, that'll be
sufficient to prevent any "over-cooling". Can you be a bit more
specific about which scenarios you're concerned about? Perhaps on the
ground in cold weather taking too long for the oil and cylinders to
warm up before takeoff?
Henry
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 12:21 PM, don van santen <donvansanten(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Instead of reversing the fans I would try reducing the exit size where the
cooling ait leaves the cowl. This could be as simple as tapeing over part ot
the exit.
Another way to keep the engine warm during cold conditions that is commonly
done to RV av is to cover up to one half ot the oil cooler inlet with a
removable plate.
On Mar 12, 2017 12:13, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 12:11 PM 3/12/2017, you wrote:
I have a Velocity (pusher) that has the original design with two NACA scoops
in the roof of the airplane and this provides good cooling in flight however
on the ground and at low altitudes it is a bit lacking during times with hot
OAT (where I fly).Â
Since I recently retrofitted a turbocharger intercooler I also installed a
third cooling air scoop and dual 10 inch Spal automobile cooling fans that
blast 650 CFM each and these fans will both cool the intake air charge and
they will also add supplemental cooling to the engine when energized. Â
So will this new design I will have solved my hot OAT ground/low altitude Â
cooling issue however I am concerned that during really cold operations it
might be too much engine cooling.Â
Is it possible to reverse the fans and the airflow so when it is really cold
outside the fans will prevent the third cooling duct from providing too much
cooling air to the engine?Â
Need more info. Are these permanent magnet
motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming
out that can be driven either polarity.
One connection produces CCW rotation, reversed
connection produces CW rotation.
The fans have a on/off switch that utelize a relay (on relay for each fan) Â
to complete the circuit to electrify the fans... in other words each fan has
a heavy gauge wire with an inline fuse for protection and there is a cockpit
panel CB protected "accessory feed" (sorry... automotive term.) that
provides power through the ON/OFF switch to the automotive relay and when
the switch is ON the accessory feed completes the circuit and the relay
closes its  contacts and the circuit for the heavy gauge wire is completed
and the fans run.Â
These sound like modern, automotive fans
that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse
rotation, you need access to the inner workings
of the electronics . . . generally hard if not
totally impractical.
Can you give us a link to the description of the
products? how much current do they draw?
Bob . . .
|
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Bob and Henry,
Thank you for your willingness to help.
| Quote: | Need more info. Are these permanent magnet motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming
out that can be driven either polarity. ...These sound like modern, automotive fans
|
that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse rotation, you need access to the inner workings of the electronics . . . generally hard if not totally impractical.
The aftermarket automotive fans are electrically insulated and are designed to be reversible and mounted on a plastic shroud and they have a red and a black wire coming out of the back. I bench tested the fans and they turn backwards when the polarity is reversed.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LY3Z9Y/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have attached a PDF document of the wire diagram. If the AeroElectric server does not allow for attachments then this image link might work:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/730x780/80-spal_wiring_diagram_78eade2fe4e5395ef98534dbc5f50f97483be5ee.jpg
I am using the bottom dual fan design however this wire diagram shows the ground wire of the relay to be connected to a Normally Open temperature actuated switch that is installed in the lower radiator of a car installation with the intent that when the radiator coolant gets above a certain temperature the thermos-switch will close and the relay coil wire will be grounded and the relay contacts close and the 12VDC power will flow to the fan motors. My relay coil wire will always be grounded and therefore the 12VDC "accessory" feed will be switched on or off to energize the relay coil.
During hot weather ground operations and low indicated airspeed, the Velocity with the propeller in the back has very little engine cooling airflow and some airplanes have engine overheating concerns during long taxi and initial climb.
During cold weather operations, the Velocity with the Lycoming only has one oil cooler and this is located in the nose compartment. Outside ram air is pushed through this oil cooler and either ducted outboard or when the pilot needs heat inside the cabin, the outlet of the oil cooler is ducted into the cabin and used for heat. Some Velocity builders report poor cabin heating from this system in very cold OAT because they have trouble keeping their engine warmed up enough to allow the oil to be to be diverted to the oil cooler up front.
With these two fans and new intake scoop I will certainly have solved the ground/low IAS cooling problem however with this new 1 inch by 14 inch additional engine cooling air intake scoop, I will have amplified this cold OAT problem.
If the fans can be reversed then during cold weather operations, they will blow backwards and stall out the ram air coming down this new scoop with the only weight penalty being a couple of extra relays and some wiring.
THANKS AGAIN!!!
.
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
--
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Quoting from the Amazon listing: "Blades and polarity of the wiring can be reversed and it becomes a pusher fan."
I take this to mean that you must reverse *both* the polarity of the power supply *and* the mounting of the blade rotor on its shaft to make the fan operate in reverse. Those blades don't look like they'll move air very well if you simply rotate them in the reverse direction; they appear very much optimized for their direction of rotation.
Do the fans' instructions say anything about installing them for reverse operation?
Eric
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Quoting again from Amazon, this time from one of the reviews of these fans: "I changed these from "pullers" to "pushers" by flipping the blades and wiring it opposite of the instructions..."
Eric
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henry(at)pericynthion.org
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:55 pm Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Hi Bill,
Good job testing that they work in reverse on the bench. It might be
worth measuring how much current they draw at 14.4V - the Amazon page
suggests 25A, which is a hefty pair of fans, and a potentially a
significant chunk of your alternator's capacity!
Instead of the relays in your diagram, one option is to just use a
high-current On-Off-On 3-position DPDT switch such as one of these:
http://www.digikey.com/short/325mhp
Referring to the schematic symbol for the DPDT on page 2 of this
datasheet: http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/stoggleshighcap.pdf ,
2 = Protected (fuse or CB) +14V
5 = Ground
1 = 6 = Motor red
3 = 4 = Motor black
You can see it graphically here: https://www.eleinmec.com/figures/012_02.gif
If you want to keep the wires in the panel skinny (might be desirable
for a pusher), you can achieve a similar effect with a DPDT relay (to
swap between forward and reverse), an SPST relay (to switch off and
on), with the coils enabled by either two separate SPST switches or a
single SPDT On-Off-On switch with a diode to let the second "On"
position power both relays. Let me know if you need a diagram 
Regardless of whether you use a high-current switch or relays, you
should also place a suitable bidirectional TVS diode across the motor
terminals to help suppress arcs in the switch/relay contacts:
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/littelfuse-inc/TP5KP15CA/F7654CT-ND/6174274
Good luck,
Henry
On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Hunter
<billhuntersemail(at)gmail.com> wrote:
[quote] Bob and Henry,
Thank you for your willingness to help.
> Need more info. Are these permanent magnet motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming
out that can be driven either polarity. ...These sound like modern, automotive fans
that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse rotation, you need access to the inner workings of the electronics . . . generally hard if not totally impractical.
The aftermarket automotive fans are electrically insulated and are designed to be reversible and mounted on a plastic shroud and they have a red and a black wire coming out of the back. I bench tested the fans and they turn backwards when the polarity is reversed.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LY3Z9Y/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have attached a PDF document of the wire diagram. If the AeroElectric server does not allow for attachments then this image link might work:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/730x780/80-spal_wiring_diagram_78eade2fe4e5395ef98534dbc5f50f97483be5ee.jpg
I am using the bottom dual fan design however this wire diagram shows the ground wire of the relay to be connected to a Normally Open temperature actuated switch that is installed in the lower radiator of a car installation with the intent that when the radiator coolant gets above a certain temperature the thermos-switch will close and the relay coil wire will be grounded and the relay contacts close and the 12VDC power will flow to the fan motors. My relay coil wire will always be grounded and therefore the 12VDC "accessory" feed will be switched on or off to energize the relay coil.
During hot weather ground operations and low indicated airspeed, the Velocity with the propeller in the back has very little engine cooling airflow and some airplanes have engine overheating concerns during long taxi and initial climb.
During cold weather operations, the Velocity with the Lycoming only has one oil cooler and this is located in the nose compartment. Outside ram air is pushed through this oil cooler and either ducted outboard or when the pilot needs heat inside the cabin, the outlet of the oil cooler is ducted into the cabin and used for heat. Some Velocity builders report poor cabin heating from this system in very cold OAT because they have trouble keeping their engine warmed up enough to allow the oil to be to be diverted to the oil cooler up front.
With these two fans and new intake scoop I will certainly have solved the ground/low IAS cooling problem however with this new 1 inch by 14 inch additional engine cooling air intake scoop, I will have amplified this cold OAT problem.
If the fans can be reversed then during cold weather operations, they will blow backwards and stall out the ram air coming down this new scoop with the only weight penalty being a couple of extra relays and some wiring.
THANKS AGAIN!!!
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
--
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Hi Bill
If you have a brushed motor you can reverse rotation by reversing leads. That said chances are the motor is timed for forward rotation. If you reverse rotation you will have retarded timing that will burn motor up in short order.
Best way to check timing is remove fan and run motor at a lower voltage, perhaps 6 to 9 volts and measure the amp draw. Then reverse leads and measure amp draw. Some motors you need to mutilate to readjust timing, but when amp draw is exactly the same, your motor is neutral timed and can be run in both directions.
Chances are that the motor has a 5 to 10 degree advance that will just trash the motor if run reversed for any length of time, excuse the pun.
Ron Parigoris
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billhuntersemail(at)gmail
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Wow...this is most helpful!!!
Very good information about the design timing of the fans and that some DC fans cannot simply be wired up in reverse because they burn up...who knew?!?!? Obviously Ron (and others) did!!!
So I will "trash" the current fans and seek out fans that advertise "reversible" as they should be neutral timed (and I will verify prior to installing).
| Quote: | Let me know if you need a diagram : )
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Henry, Yes PLEASE : 0
I think it is imperative (safety and weight wise) to go with the skinny wire approach and to utilize a DPDT relay to operate the fans. Yes...PLEASE...I would greatly appreciate your assistance in getting a wire diagram and part numbers of the relay(s) and the location of the TVS diode. Who knew there was such a thing as a bidirectional TVS diode (rhetorical question).
I have RockRack switches on order and the one I want to use for this fan system is a ON OFF ON switch. Aircraft Spruce does not advertise anything about how many poles or throws (Grrrrr) however I have a picture of the back of the switch and it has 10 terminal spades on the back and since the switch has two LEDs that can be wired up and illuminated when the switch is full up or full down, that takes 4 of the 10 spades and with 6 spades left over I ass-u-me it is a DPDT switch.
So in other words it would be most excellent on a hot OAT day to simply push the one RockRack switch fully UP for takeoff and have the top switch LED light up and the fans run as pullers for cooling, then when at altitude and the CHTs are a bit too cold to push the switch to center OFF position and the LEDs are black and the fans stop, and then when flying in really cold OAT or during descent to push the single RockRack switch fully DOWN and the bottom LED lights and the fans run as pushers to blow back against the ram air through my third large cooling scoop.
This ad from eBay Aircraft Parts Supply states that these automotive fans are reversible and each fan draws 80 watts so I believe both combined will draw less than 15 Amps (of course I will need to verify both the actual load and that the load is the same forward and backwards prior to proceeding).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-6-INCH-ELECTRIC-RADIATOR-COOLING-FANS-PUSH-IN-PROBE-THERMOSTAT-2-PACK-FAN-/331828470556
This is really a fun learning experience and I cannot thank you enough for your willingness to help!!! I will be happy to give rides in my airplane when (if) I ever get it put together!!!
.
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Bill,
The eBay fans have the same problem; their blades must be flipped on the shaft to reverse airflow. Quoting from the listing: "Blade and wiring can be reversed to make the fans air pushers."
You're probably going to find that this is a common problem. Most fans with injection molded plastic blade rotors will be CFD-optimized for direction of rotation, and they may not work well if only the motor is reversed.
It might be worth asking the fan manufacturer if a motor-only reversal just presents a minor efficiency loss or if it could harm the motor. Don't forget to consider the additional load presented by ram air. If your NACA duct is working well, that could be substantial, especially against a blade that's turning the wrong direction.
The fans may rely on the airflow they generate to cool themselves. If you use the fans to stall airflow, will their motors overheat?
Have you considered just installing a butterfly or knife valve in the tubing from your duct to cut off airflow if it's too cold? It could be operated by a simple push/pull cable that would allow you to modulate airflow by partially closing the valve. The only electrical change you would need is a cutout switch that removes fan power if the valve isn't fully open.
Eric
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rnjcurtis(at)charter.net
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans |
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Has any consideration been given to eliminating the use of the fan in cold weather and putting a “Plug” in the extra air intake. The plug could be fabricated perhaps as a door or a foam plug. I am not familiar with the aircraft and the cooling mods thus far made, but there may be another alternative, rather than being hung up on the fan issue.
Roger
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