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PS
Joined: 08 Sep 2006
Posts: 84
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:40 am Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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Mark,
You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible, but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less aggressive service for the Yaks.
Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe? Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
Regards,
Phil
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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:50 am Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS Missouri.   I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I can't verify their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight failure of a YAK 52 airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design their aircraft such that airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice the G limit of the aircraft vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S. certified aircraft. Therefore, even a +5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail before +10 g's, most will stall long before that or the pilot will be GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in their history the YAK Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the airframes and performed the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's.  There are others who watch this list who may chime in the specifics.
You may be onto something if one aileron has the fabric holes uncovered, but any drag would more likely be fixed by tweaking the rudder trim tab and putting the ball in the center. Any airflow disruption would more likely cause a change in the effectiveness of aileron itself by disturbing the boundary layer. But, that big chunk of wood on the front of the YAK that the Russians call a V530 propeller creates so much P factor that any change in power settings or RPM noticeably changes roll trim on my YAK. So I try to trim mine for a typical 70% rpm 125-130 KTAS cruising speed for cross country flights and live with the slightly out of trim one way or the other aileron control pressures the rest of the time. Otherwise, seek out a cheap electric trim system or do what I do and make my wife take the stick for a few minutes if I'm trying to refold a sectional on a cross country.  I may be the last dinosaur out there without ForeFlight that still keeps a paper sectional in the airplane....and everywhere I go I have to either flip the chart or refold as I go from seam to seam.... : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillip Salter
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:36 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
Mark,
You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible, but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less aggressive service for the Yaks.
Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe? Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
Regards,
Phil
--
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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The Yak 52's wing has 2 degrees dihedral on the bottom of the wing (with
2 wings, I guess that would equal 4 degree  )
The first Yak 52's had the +7,-5 rating and were later derated by the
YDB until SB's 59 and 60 were installed.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/25/2017 10:47 AM, Mark Davis wrote:
[quote]
I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it
with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS
Missouri. I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I
can't verify their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight
failure of a YAK 52 airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design
their aircraft such that airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice
the G limit of the aircraft vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S.
certified aircraft. Therefore, even a +5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail
before +10 g's, most will stall long before that or the pilot will be
GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in their history the YAK
Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the airframes and performed
the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's. There are others
who watch this list who may chime in the specifics.
You may be onto something if one aileron has the fabric holes
uncovered, but any drag would more likely be fixed by tweaking the
rudder trim tab and putting the ball in the center. Any airflow
disruption would more likely cause a change in the effectiveness of
aileron itself by disturbing the boundary layer. But, that big chunk
of wood on the front of the YAK that the Russians call a V530
propeller creates so much P factor that any change in power settings
or RPM noticeably changes roll trim on my YAK. So I try to trim mine
for a typical 70% rpm 125-130 KTAS cruising speed for cross country
flights and live with the slightly out of trim one way or the other
aileron control pressures the rest of the time. Otherwise, seek out a
cheap electric trim system or do what I do and make my wife take the
stick for a few minutes if I'm trying to refold a sectional on a cross
country. I may be the last dinosaur out there without ForeFlight that
still keeps a paper sectional in the airplane....and everywhere I go I
have to either flip the chart or refold as I go from seam to seam.... : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
*From:*owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Phillip Salter
*Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:36 AM
*To:* yak-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
Mark,
You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few
Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up
during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible,
but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely
over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable
for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile
flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner
who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to
cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane
flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric
covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the
right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club
plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less
aggressive service for the Yaks.
Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe?
Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
Regards,
Phil
--
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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One more thing that no one has mentioned is the centering springs on the stick I think you could adjust them so the aircraft would fly straight and level, I took mine out because when I fly the Yak straight and level is the furthest thing on my mind.
Bill Wade N4450Y
From: A. Dennis Savarese <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net (dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net)>
The Yak 52's wing has 2 degrees dihedral on the bottom of the wing (with
2 wings, I guess that would equal 4 degree )
The first Yak 52's had the +7,-5 rating and were later derated by the
YDB until SB's 59 and 60 were installed.
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 3/25/2017 10:47 AM, Mark Davis wrote:
| Quote: | I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it
|
| Quote: | with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS
|
| Quote: | Missouri. I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I
|
| Quote: | can't verify their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight
|
| Quote: | failure of a YAK 52 airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design
|
| Quote: | their aircraft such that airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice
|
| Quote: | the G limit of the aircraft vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S.
|
| Quote: | certified aircraft. Therefore, even a +5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail
|
| Quote: | before +10 g's, most will stall long before that or the pilot will be
|
| Quote: | GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in their history the YAK
|
| Quote: | Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the airframes and performed
|
| Quote: | the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's. There are others
|
| Quote: | who watch this list who may chime in the specifics.
|
| Quote: | You may be onto something if one aileron has the fabric holes
|
| Quote: | uncovered, but any drag would more likely be fixed by tweaking the
|
| Quote: | rudder trim tab and putting the ball in the center. Any airflow
|
| Quote: | disruption would more likely cause a change in the effectiveness of
|
| Quote: | aileron itself by disturbing the boundary layer. But, that big chunk
|
| Quote: | of wood on the front of the YAK that the Russians call a V530
|
| Quote: | propeller creates so much P factor that any change in power settings
|
| Quote: | or RPM noticeably changes roll trim on my YAK. So I try to trim mine
|
| Quote: | for a typical 70% rpm 125-130 KTAS cruising speed for cross country
|
| Quote: | flights and live with the slightly out of trim one way or the other
|
| Quote: | aileron control pressures the rest of the time. Otherwise, seek out a
|
| Quote: | cheap electric trim system or do what I do and make my wife take the
|
| Quote: | stick for a few minutes if I'm trying to refold a sectional on a cross
|
| Quote: | country. I may be the last dinosaur out there without ForeFlight that
|
| Quote: | still keeps a paper sectional in the airplane....and everywhere I go I
|
| Quote: | have to either flip the chart or refold as I go from seam to seam.... : )
|
| Quote: | *Sent:* Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:36 AM
|
| Quote: | *Subject:* Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
|
| Quote: | You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few
|
| Quote: | Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up
|
| Quote: | during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible,
|
| Quote: | but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely
|
| Quote: | over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable
|
| Quote: | for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile
|
| Quote: | flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner
|
| Quote: | who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to
|
| Quote: | cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane
|
| Quote: | flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric
|
| Quote: | covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the
|
| Quote: | right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club
|
| Quote: | plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less
|
| Quote: | aggressive service for the Yaks.
|
| Quote: | Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe?
|
| Quote: | Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
|
[quote] --
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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Phil,
It's the driver not the YAK that is twisted.
Seriously, no I have not been told my YAK was twisted.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Mar 24, 2017, at 6:29 PM, PS <psalter(at)aol.com> wrote:
Many of the Yaks that came out of Russia after the fall had been twisted by the aerobatics clubs. If you can get it to fly straight and level in cruise, let me know.
I received the above email concerning my Yak. I have been involved and owned Yaks over 17 years, and never heard anyone mention a "twisted" Yak. Is there any validity to this? Being an nearly 0 deg dihedral aircraft, is a Yak 52 ever totally stable? My aircraft flies great but has a slight roll to the right, so minor I never worry about it.
Regards,
Phil
--------
Phil
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467584#467584
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Viperdoc |
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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Paddles,
You are doing better than me on paper charts. With the canopy cracked I can't keep them in the cockpit.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 25, 2017, at 9:47 AM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)> wrote:
[quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS Missouri. I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I can't verify their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight failure of a YAK 52 airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design their aircraft such that airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice the G limit of the aircraft vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S. certified aircraft. Therefore, even a +5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail before +10 g's, most will stall long before that or the pilot will be GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in their history the YAK Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the airframes and performed the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's. There are others who watch this list who may chime in the specifics.
You may be onto something if one aileron has the fabric holes uncovered, but any drag would more likely be fixed by tweaking the rudder trim tab and putting the ball in the center. Any airflow disruption would more likely cause a change in the effectiveness of aileron itself by disturbing the boundary layer. But, that big chunk of wood on the front of the YAK that the Russians call a V530 propeller creates so much P factor that any change in power settings or RPM noticeably changes roll trim on my YAK. So I try to trim mine for a typical 70% rpm 125-130 KTAS cruising speed for cross country flights and live with the slightly out of trim one way or the other aileron control pressures the rest of the time. Otherwise, seek out a cheap electric trim system or do what I do and make my wife take the stick for a few minutes if I'm trying to refold a sectional on a cross country. I may be the last dinosaur out there without ForeFlight that still keeps a paper sectional in the airplane....and everywhere I go I have to either flip the chart or refold as I go from seam to seam... : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Phillip Salter
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:36 AM
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
Mark,
You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible, but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less aggressive service for the Yaks.
Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe? Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
Regards,
Phil
--
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Dawg
Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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Pull 10g in the other direction. It will probably twist back. All good.Tape the charts to the windshield; keeps the sun out and they don’t blow away as often. Slide the chart into the crack.
OR buy a CJ. They have so many issues that you won’t notice that you’re twisted and flying sideways.
Just a thought.[quote]On Mar 25, 2017, at 18:09, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com (f16viperdoc(at)me.com)> wrote:
Paddles,
You are doing better than me on paper charts. With the canopy cracked I can't keep them in the cockpit.
DocSent from my iPad
On Mar 25, 2017, at 9:47 AM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org (markdavis(at)wbsnet.org)> wrote:
[quote]I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS Missouri. I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I can't verify their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight failure of a YAK 52 airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design their aircraft such that airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice the G limit of the aircraft vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S. certified aircraft. Therefore, even a +5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail before +10 g's, most will stall long before that or the pilot will be GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in their history the YAK Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the airframes and performed the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's. There are others who watch this list who may chime in the specifics.
You may be onto something if one aileron has the fabric holes uncovered, but any drag would more likely be fixed by tweaking the rudder trim tab and putting the ball in the center. Any airflow disruption would more likely cause a change in the effectiveness of aileron itself by disturbing the boundary layer. But, that big chunk of wood on the front of the YAK that the Russians call a V530 propeller creates so much P factor that any change in power settings or RPM noticeably changes roll trim on my YAK. So I try to trim mine for a typical 70% rpm 125-130 KTAS cruising speed for cross country flights and live with the slightly out of trim one way or the other aileron control pressures the rest of the time. Otherwise, seek out a cheap electric trim system or do what I do and make my wife take the stick for a few minutes if I'm trying to refold a sectional on a cross country. I may be the last dinosaur out there without ForeFlight that still keeps a paper sectional in the airplane....and everywhere I go I have to either flip the chart or refold as I go from seam to seam.... : )
Mark Davis
N44YK
From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Phillip SalterSent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:36 AMTo: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe
Mark,
You peaked my interest in twisted airframes. I have contacted a few Yak folks and the common answer, spoke to how aircraft are set up during assembly, rather than a twist. Of course anything is possible, but twisting a Yak airframe would take serious abuse, and most likely over G. The Yaks only have 4 deg of dihedral and are neutrally stable for aerobatic purposes so it does not take much to change from stabile flight to a slight roll one way or the other. I talked with Yak owner who is an aeronautical engineer and his suggestion for my plane is to cover the lighting holes behind the right aileron first. This plane flew mostly hands off when I got it but it changed. The fabric covering the lightning holes came off which may be causing drag on the right wing from turbulence. My aircraft was not an aerobatic club plane, it was Romanian Military which I was told is a better or less aggressive service for the Yaks.
Do you by chance know what actually twists on the Yak airframe? Measurements may be the answer to find a twist.
Regards,
Phil
--
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marty.jpm(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:32 am Post subject: Twisted Yak 52 Airframe |
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😂😊
Le 26 mars 2017 01:54, "William Geipel" <l129bs(at)gmail.com> a écrit :
[quote] Pull 10g in the other direction. It will probably twist back. All good.
Tape the charts to the windshield; keeps the sun out and they don’t blow
away as often. Slide the chart into the crack.
OR buy a CJ. They have so many issues that you won’t notice that you’re
twisted and flying sideways.
Just a thought.
On Mar 25, 2017, at 18:09, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com> wrote:
Paddles,
You are doing better than me on paper charts. With the canopy cracked I
can't keep them in the cockpit.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 25, 2017, at 9:47 AM, Mark Davis <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:
I don't know if you can twist a YAK52 airframe without running over it
with a Russian tractor, mine has more rivets on it than the USS Missouri.
I've been told two things about YAK 52 airframes, but I can't verify
their accuracy. One, there has never been an inflight failure of a YAK 52
airframe. Two, that the Soviets/Russians design their aircraft such that
airframe failure shouldn't occur before twice the G limit of the aircraft
vs. 1.5 times the G limit for U.S. certified aircraft. Therefore, even a
+5/-3 airframe wouldn't fail before +10 g's, most will stall long before
that or the pilot will be GLOC'd and not know the difference. Early in
their history the YAK Design Bureau obviously saw an issue with the
airframes and performed the modification to raise the limits to +7/-5 g's
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