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mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:57 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html

OC?



MT

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/26/2017



Hello Mark, Yes. I can confirm this event. Here is the back story:



1) I was never happy with my first (#1) Lyle Hendricks round tube nose gear 

strut. It was very sturdy, but it had two manufacturing / design defects in 

my opinion.



a) The bottom vertical 3/4-16 threaded stud potion was too short. This meant 

that a thin AN320-12  castle nut must be used instead of the normal 

thickness AN310-12 castle nut. This further meant that the total nut-to-stud 

thread interface holding the aluminum shoe and any washer stack up into 

place was pretty limited. I was concerned that that interface could fail and 

the entire shoe and nose wheel could fall off in flight.



b) The cotter pin hole through the bottom of that stud did not pass through 

the center of the stud. This off set meant that the pin would not pass 

through the normal castle notches in the AN320-12 nut. A person had to grind 

/ file the nut notches wider in order for the cotter pin to pass through the 

nut. This had two effects: ONE) The nut could not be rotated one notch at a 

time to adjust the friction keeping the shoe from shimmying on landing roll 

out unless each pair of notches was ground or filed wider. TWO) Grinding or 

filing all pairs of notches wider further reduced the nut-to-stud thread 

interface.



2) So my solution after over 500 flight hours with no problems other than 

dealing with the two irritating issues described above was to have Lyle make 

for me a new nose gear strut (#2) with modifications to eliminate the two 

issues. I also had Lyle make some other design modifications to this #2 

strut assembly such as a longer threaded portion at the top of the 

compression rod and a welded cross bar at the bottom of the rod. The longer 

threaded portion at the top of the rod gave more vertical adjustment 

opportunity for the rod and the welded bar permitted one to hold the rod 

from rotating when wrenching nuts at the top of the rod.



3) The #2 strut assembly was installed and I set off on its first test 

flight. Unfortunately, not having any numerical figure available to measure 

the shimmy prevention friction for the shoe, I used the TFAR (That Feels 

About Right) criteria in tightening the AN310-12 nut holding the (new to me) 

two Belleville washers up against the aluminum shoe. TFAR worked fine for a 

few touch and go landings at an outlying field, but when I returned to my 

home field (KHEF Manassas Virginia) for one final landing trouble showed up.



4) At a very slow speed on the final landing roll out the nose wheel began 

to shimmy violently from side to side. This shimmy broke the two aluminum 

nose wheel brackets at the bottom of the fire wall and allowed the strut 

assembly to flop over sideways and the airplane nose to be lowered to the 

runway surface. The damage consisted of grinding off a small portion of the 

bottom of the #2 strut weldment, grinding off a bit of each wooden propeller 

tip, and some scrapes off the bottom of the spinner, lower engine cowl, and 

one of the main landing gear wheel pants. This event falls into the 

categories of: "No good deed goes unpunished" or "If it ain't broke, don't 

fix it". Take your choice.



5) The airplane was recovered to my hangar, Lyle graciously agreed to build 

me strut assembly #3, Prince Aircraft repaired the propeller tips, I 

replaced the spinner, repaired the engine cowling and the wheel pants, and 

had them painted. I put everything back together once I had all pieces in 

hand and used a 27 pound pull at the axle as my base figure for measuring 

the friction for tightening the AN310-12 nut. I flew again for the first 

time since the reported event on 10/18/2016. No nose wheel strut problems 

since then. Thanks again go to Lyle.



Any questions?



OC



=====================================



From: mark_trickel

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:57 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Can anybody confirm this?






http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html

OC?



MT

aeromomentum(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Hello OC,



How much weight do you have on your nose gear?  Have you moved you main gear forward?  As you may know the more weight on the nose the more energy to the shimmy.  With more energy the less effective the friction damping.  The geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some tweaking to reduce shimmy.



Mark K.



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com, "TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com>

 Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 11:45 AM

 

 

 "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 

 3/26/2017

 

 Hello Mark, Yes. I can confirm this event. Here is the back

 story:

 

 1) I was never happy with my first (#1) Lyle Hendricks round

 tube nose gear 

 strut. It was very sturdy, but it had two manufacturing /

 design defects in 

 my opinion.

 

 a) The bottom vertical 3/4-16 threaded stud potion was too

 short. This meant 

 that a thin AN320-12  castle nut must be used instead

 of the normal 

 thickness AN310-12 castle nut. This further meant that the

 total nut-to-stud 

 thread interface holding the aluminum shoe and any washer

 stack up into 

 place was pretty limited. I was concerned that that

 interface could fail and 

 the entire shoe and nose wheel could fall off in flight.

 

 b) The cotter pin hole through the bottom of that stud did

 not pass through 

 the center of the stud. This off set meant that the pin

 would not pass 

 through the normal castle notches in the AN320-12 nut. A

 person had to grind 

 / file the nut notches wider in order for the cotter pin to

 pass through the 

 nut. This had two effects: ONE) The nut could not be rotated

 one notch at a 

 time to adjust the friction keeping the shoe from shimmying

 on landing roll 

 out unless each pair of notches was ground or filed wider.

 TWO) Grinding or 

 filing all pairs of notches wider further reduced the

 nut-to-stud thread 

 interface.

 

 2) So my solution after over 500 flight hours with no

 problems other than 

 dealing with the two irritating issues described above was

 to have Lyle make 

 for me a new nose gear strut (#2) with modifications to

 eliminate the two 

 issues. I also had Lyle make some other design modifications

 to this #2 

 strut assembly such as a longer threaded portion at the top

 of the 

 compression rod and a welded cross bar at the bottom of the

 rod. The longer 

 threaded portion at the top of the rod gave more vertical

 adjustment 

 opportunity for the rod and the welded bar permitted one to

 hold the rod 

 from rotating when wrenching nuts at the top of the rod.

 

 3) The #2 strut assembly was installed and I set off on its

 first test 

 flight. Unfortunately, not having any numerical figure

 available to measure 

 the shimmy prevention friction for the shoe, I used the TFAR

 (That Feels 

 About Right) criteria in tightening the AN310-12 nut holding

 the (new to me) 

 two Belleville washers up against the aluminum shoe. TFAR

 worked fine for a 

 few touch and go landings at an outlying field, but when I

 returned to my 

 home field (KHEF Manassas Virginia) for one final landing

 trouble showed up.

 

 4) At a very slow speed on the final landing roll out the

 nose wheel began 

 to shimmy violently from side to side. This shimmy broke the

 two aluminum 

 nose wheel brackets at the bottom of the fire wall and

 allowed the strut 

 assembly to flop over sideways and the airplane nose to be

 lowered to the 

 runway surface. The damage consisted of grinding off a small

 portion of the 

 bottom of the #2 strut weldment, grinding off a bit of each

 wooden propeller 

 tip, and some scrapes off the bottom of the spinner, lower

 engine cowl, and 

 one of the main landing gear wheel pants. This event falls

 into the 

 categories of: "No good deed goes unpunished" or "If it

 ain't broke, don't 

 fix it". Take your choice.

 

 5) The airplane was recovered to my hangar, Lyle graciously

 agreed to build 

 me strut assembly #3, Prince Aircraft repaired the propeller

 tips, I 

 replaced the spinner, repaired the engine cowling and the

 wheel pants, and 

 had them painted. I put everything back together once I had

 all pieces in 

 hand and used a 27 pound pull at the axle as my base figure

 for measuring 

 the friction for tightening the AN310-12 nut. I flew again

 for the first 

 time since the reported event on 10/18/2016. No nose wheel

 strut problems 

 since then. Thanks again go to Lyle.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 =====================================

 

 From: mark_trickel

 Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:57 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 

 

 http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html

 

 

 OC?

 

 MT

 

 

 Forum -

    - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

 MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

 List Contribution Web Site -

               -Matt

 Dralle, List Admin.

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/26/2017



Hello Mark K, Thanks for your input. You wrote:



1) "Have you moved you main gear forward?"



Yes, I wedged it forward with flox. The main landing gear axles are 72.25 

inches aft of the 0.00 datum point.

That datum point is, in turn, 32.00 inches forward of the engine cowling 

joggle on the fuselage.



2) "How much weight do you have on your nose gear?"



Right now, in operational configuration and without reweighing, I don't 

know.



The original empty aircraft weighing showed 242 pounds on the nose gear. 

Since then there have been a few misc items (quart of oil, jar for fuel 

testing, rags, etc.)

that are normally kept in the right baggage well.



Also there are some other misc items (hand held radio, small tool bag, water 

bottle, roll of tape, etc.) that have taken up permanent lodging on the hat 

shelf aft of the seats.



Not too long ago I double bagged sand into two kitchen sliding lock plastic 

gallon bags (they totaled 23 pounds) and placed them over the battery box in 

the far right rear corner of the right baggage well (I mostly fly solo in 

the left seat) because I was unhappy that the nose gear was descending to 

meet the runway too quickly after the main gear touched down. I am not sure 

if that has helped, or if so how much.



3) "The geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some tweaking to reduce 

shimmy."



Can you please elaborate on the contribution of the pivot angle axis on 

shimmy and how one would go about tweaking that angle in a KIS TR-1? Thanks.



Also a reminder that my shimmy problem with strut #2 was my fault for not 

tightening the friction nut enough and I have had no shimmy problems since 

installing strut #3 and using 27 pounds as a base figure for setting the 

friction nut.



Also in my listing of the design / manufacturing defects in the #1 strut in 

paragraph 1 below I forget to mention that the off center cotter pin hole 

was also so close to the end of the vertical stub that I was concerned about 

the possibility of break out.



OC



PS: I have your last name spelled Kettering in some old places in my 

computer. Has there been a change?



========================================



From: M Ketteing

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 12:30 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com ; TRICKEL MARK

Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?






Hello OC,



How much weight do you have on your nose gear?  Have you moved you main gear 

forward?  As you may know the more weight on the nose the more energy to the 

shimmy.  With more energy the less effective the friction damping.  The 

geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some tweaking to reduce shimmy.



Mark K.



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:



Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com, "TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com>

Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 11:45 AM




"Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>



3/26/2017



Hello Mark, Yes. I can confirm this event. Here is the back

story:



1) I was never happy with my first (#1) Lyle Hendricks round

tube nose gear

strut. It was very sturdy, but it had two manufacturing /

design defects in

my opinion.



a) The bottom vertical 3/4-16 threaded stud potion was too

short. This meant

that a thin AN320-12  castle nut must be used instead

of the normal

thickness AN310-12 castle nut. This further meant that the

total nut-to-stud

thread interface holding the aluminum shoe and any washer

stack up into

place was pretty limited. I was concerned that that

interface could fail and

the entire shoe and nose wheel could fall off in flight.



b) The cotter pin hole through the bottom of that stud did

not pass through

the center of the stud. This off set meant that the pin

would not pass

through the normal castle notches in the AN320-12 nut. A

person had to grind

/ file the nut notches wider in order for the cotter pin to

pass through the

nut. This had two effects: ONE) The nut could not be rotated

one notch at a

time to adjust the friction keeping the shoe from shimmying

on landing roll

out unless each pair of notches was ground or filed wider.

TWO) Grinding or

filing all pairs of notches wider further reduced the

nut-to-stud thread

interface.



2) So my solution after over 500 flight hours with no

problems other than

dealing with the two irritating issues described above was

to have Lyle make

for me a new nose gear strut (#2) with modifications to

eliminate the two

issues. I also had Lyle make some other design modifications

to this #2

strut assembly such as a longer threaded portion at the top

of the

compression rod and a welded cross bar at the bottom of the

rod. The longer

threaded portion at the top of the rod gave more vertical

adjustment

opportunity for the rod and the welded bar permitted one to

hold the rod

from rotating when wrenching nuts at the top of the rod.



3) The #2 strut assembly was installed and I set off on its

first test

flight. Unfortunately, not having any numerical figure

available to measure

the shimmy prevention friction for the shoe, I used the TFAR

(That Feels

About Right) criteria in tightening the AN310-12 nut holding

the (new to me)

two Belleville washers up against the aluminum shoe. TFAR

worked fine for a

few touch and go landings at an outlying field, but when I

returned to my

home field (KHEF Manassas Virginia) for one final landing

trouble showed up.



4) At a very slow speed on the final landing roll out the

nose wheel began

to shimmy violently from side to side. This shimmy broke the

two aluminum

nose wheel brackets at the bottom of the fire wall and

allowed the strut

assembly to flop over sideways and the airplane nose to be

lowered to the

runway surface. The damage consisted of grinding off a small

portion of the

bottom of the #2 strut weldment, grinding off a bit of each

wooden propeller

tip, and some scrapes off the bottom of the spinner, lower

engine cowl, and

one of the main landing gear wheel pants. This event falls

into the

categories of: "No good deed goes unpunished" or "If it

ain't broke, don't

fix it". Take your choice.



5) The airplane was recovered to my hangar, Lyle graciously

agreed to build

me strut assembly #3, Prince Aircraft repaired the propeller

tips, I

replaced the spinner, repaired the engine cowling and the

wheel pants, and

had them painted. I put everything back together once I had

all pieces in

hand and used a 27 pound pull at the axle as my base figure

for measuring

the friction for tightening the AN310-12 nut. I flew again

for the first

time since the reported event on 10/18/2016. No nose wheel

strut problems

since then. Thanks again go to Lyle.



Any questions?



OC



=====================================



From: mark_trickel

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:57 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Can anybody confirm this?






http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html

OC?



MT

ftyoder(at)yoderbuilt.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

OC,



My main gear on N52TY are 74.25" aft of the 0.00 datum point and the nose

gear weighs 245#. I added 1 1/2" to my elevator cord which helps hold the

nose gear off at touch down.



Tim 



--

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:19 am Post subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens within our small community I feel it is very important that all details are covered so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very small percentage of our community frequent this forum.



I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I was aware you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.



My questions are:

On nose gear #1 – That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was too short to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and too close to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest of the fleet that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if you might have considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a proper stack? That may have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper stack with Belleville washers in place could have remedied your second issue to only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was in your original stack?



On nose gear #2 – What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on both sides (above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?



Weight and balance – Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this episode? We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply having the CG at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to be closer to the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft limit as that is where it is most efficient.



So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner hit the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the time of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this prop was repairable?



Nose gear #3 – third time is always a charm! 

MT

Keith.Miller(at)esa.int
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened  stud . Mine was made a

few months later by Lyle and he had  noted the problem and fixed it, so i

guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series



(See attached file: IMG_9929.JPG)

From:       "mark_trickel" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com>

To:         kis-list(at)matronics.com

Date:       03/27/2017 03:23 PM

Subject:    Re: Can anybody confirm this?

Sent by:    owner-kis-list-server(at)matronics.com






OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens

within our small community I feel it is very important that all details are

covered so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very

small percentage of our community frequent this forum.



I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I was

aware you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.



My questions are:

On nose gear #1 ??? That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was too

short to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and too

close to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest of the

fleet that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if you

might have considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a proper

stack? That may have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper stack

with Belleville washers in place could have remedied your second issue to

only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was in

your original stack?



On nose gear #2 ??? What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on both

sides (above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the

Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?



Weight and balance ??? Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this

episode? We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply having

the CG at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to be

closer to the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft limit as

that is where it is most efficient.



So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner

hit the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the

time of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this

prop was repairable?



Nose gear #3 ??? third time is always a charm!

MT





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bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:22 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/27/2017



Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:



1) ".... he had  noted the problem and fixed it..."



I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear 

type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?). 

This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter 

portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence 

that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the 

vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3 

weldments.



See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I 

initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub 

was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel 

immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong 

and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained 

bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the 

steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear 

from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a bright 

light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.



I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the 

quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not 

pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the 

bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears 

as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear 

was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.



Any questions?



OC



=============================================



From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int

Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?



I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened  stud . Mine was made a

few months later by Lyle and he had  noted the problem and fixed it, so i

guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series

4-9-16_CAMERA_003.JPG

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pastormac62

Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 71
Location: Indiana

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Hi Guys,

Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?  

Thanks!!

Steve 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:

 

 3/27/2017

 

 Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:

 

 1) ".... he had  noted the problem and fixed it..."

 

 I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?). This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3 weldments.

 

 See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a bright light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.

 

 I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 =============================================

 

 From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int

 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened  stud . Mine was made a

 few months later by Lyle and he had  noted the problem and fixed it, so i

 guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series

 

 

 <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/27/2017



Hello Mark, You wrote:



1) "I am curious to know if you might have considered milling the surface of 

the shoe to allow of a proper stack?"



This is not a feasible solution. The bottom surface of the shoe must project 

down below the shoulder above the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical 

stub so that any washers contact the bottom of the shoe and not the shoulder 

of the stub. This washer contact with the bottom of the shoe is what applies 

the friction force on the shoe that keeps it from shimmying. In one of the 

newsletters there is an article, along with a sketch, that emphasizes this 

point.



2) "... a proper stack with Belleville washers in place could have remedied 

your second issue to only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter 

pin slot."



I operated with only one pair of widened notches in the castle nut for some 

period of time. This became a nuisance when I wanted to make a small 

friction adjustment without disturbing and reshuffling the entire washer 

stack.



What you are suggesting here is that the friction level be adjusted by 

inserting or removing washers to obtain the desired results rather than just 

turning the nut. This is a rather crude manner of adjusting the friction and 

it could take many tries (and many different washer thicknesses) to achieve 

the desired results. As a side note: Realize also that the nut must be 

prevented from rotating by sticking an ice pick or something similar through 

the cotter key passage every time the shoe is rotated for testing of the 

friction level. It always bothered me a bit that the nut rotated back and 

forth a little bit with the change in direction of the movement of the shoe 

even with the cotter pin in place. I eventually solved that problem, if it 

was a problem, by replacing the cotter pin with a #6 hex socket head cap 

screw, two washers, and an elastic stop nut.



3) "What was in your original stack?"



One or more 1/8 inch thick nylon washers and flat metal washers as needed to 

fit in the limited height available and obtained the desired friction level.



4) "On nose gear #2 â€“ What was in the stack?"



Either two or four Belleville washers -- I can not exactly recall.



5) "Did you have steel washers on both sides (above and below) of the 

Belleville washers?"



I did not. Even with the provided increased length of the 3/4 inch diameter 

portion of the vertical stub there was insufficient room to accommodate flat 

washers in addition to the Belleville washers and the full size AN310-12 

castle nut. (I had asked Lyle to make the 3/4 inch portion of the vertical 

stub longer than he provided, but he declined to do so.)



6) "Did you have the Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum 

shoe?"



Yes, but it was not my desire to do it that way. See 5 above.



7) "Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this episode?"



Some where between 61.50 and 65.60 inches aft of the datum point.



 "How many times did each blade strike the runway?"



Here is how I responded to a local pilot who asked a similarly motivated 

question about engine stoppage:



"The engine did not experience sudden stoppage in the current factory 

documented concept in my opinion. First point: This is a

wooden prop and all the current literature assumes a metal prop which can

deliver a much more abrupt shock to an engine crankshaft. Second point: Each

of the propeller blades had a small and equal amount of material scraped off

of its tip with no significant impact rotational damage appearing any

further towards the propeller hub.



I considered pulling the engine and sending it to one of the three

organizations that the factory rep recommended when I talked to him about my

situation. I also reviewed the Continental documentation on what they

considered an acceptable tear down inspection. It was practically back to

the ore that the metal had been forged from -- no bit was to be left

connected to any other bit. I also thought back to my training at the

Continental factory before I bought my engine and remembered the tooling,

extreme precision, and care that was needed in assembling an engine. I just

did not believe that: a) That degree of disassembly was needed. b) No field

activity in their right mind would go to the disassembly level called for in

the Continental documentation. c) Regardless of the level of disassembly at

the field activity I doubted their ability to put the engine back together

as well as it was currently put together by the factory. I had more

confidence in the engine as it existed than after a tear down and reassembly

by some non factory field activity."



9) "And this prop was repairable?"



The tips were repaired by the Prince factory in a few weeks and the engine, 

prop, plane, and pilot have flown 15 hours since the event.



OC



PS: I can appreciate that people are reading all sorts of things into this 

event and asking all sorts of questions that I am willing to answer. But I 

ask all to remember that this event was a direct result of the mechanic (me) 

installing Lyle gear #2 with no numerical friction level information at hand 

and using the criteria of TFAR (That Feels About Right) to set the friction 

level. It was right for a few landings and then it wasn't.



===============================



From: mark_trickel

Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 9:19 AM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?






OC, thank you for the details of this situation. When any occurrence happens 

within our small community I feel it is very important that all details are 

covered so we can learn from it. The unfortunate part is that only a very 

small percentage of our community frequent this forum.



I was aware you were having Lyle make you a new nose gear with changes. I 

was aware you were looking for torque specs, but I missed the mishap.



My questions are:

On nose gear #1 â€“ That was a little disheartening to learn the stud was 

too short to allow for a proper stack, and that the hole was off center and 

too close to the end of the stud. Now that makes me fearful about the rest 

of the fleet that might have this nose gear version. I am curious to know if 

you might have considered milling the surface of the shoe to allow of a 

proper stack? That may have eliminated one of your two issues and a proper 

stack with Belleville washers in place could have remedied your second issue 

to only having to modified the castle nut in one cotter pin slot. What was 

in your original stack?



On nose gear #2 â€“ What was in the stack? Did you have steel washers on 

both sides (above and below) of the Belleville washers? Did you have the 

Belleville washers in direct contact with the aluminum shoe?



Weight and balance â€“ Where do you estimate your CG was at the time of this 

episode? We all know the forward and aft limits of the TR-1 but simply 

having the CG at the forward limit is not good enough (IMO). The CG needs to 

be closer to the center and in the best-case scenario closer to the aft 

limit as that is where it is most efficient.



So I understand you had a nose gear collapse similar to Galin. Your spinner 

hit the runway. The engine was most likely at idol say 800 to 900 rpm at the 

time of impact. How many times did each blade strike the runway? And this 

prop was repairable?



Nose gear #3 â€“ third time is always a charm!

MT

bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:27 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/27/2017



Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"



This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the 

bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.

See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this 

email.



This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, 

collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and 

contact the runway surface.



I recommend:



1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. 

(Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)



2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of 

the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe 

from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If 

it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of 

the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.



3)  Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin 

head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the 

sharpie.



4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning. 

Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is 

so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.



5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick 

or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole 

through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.



6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that 

you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.



7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the 

desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire 

to the ground.



 Go fly the plane.



Any questions?



OC



================================



From: pastormac(at)comcast.net

Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?






Hi Guys,

Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and 

landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

Thanks!!

Steve

IMG_9929.JPG

Description:

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2.93 MB

Viewed:

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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

FWIW Rich told me to adjust the nose gear friction to between 20 and 35lbs of break force with 27lb being optimal. He did say that 20lbs was an absolute minimum, that 20lbs might not work in some cases and not to worry about being super accurate. I still have the cheap Walmart fish weight scale he got for me in El Salvador just like this one:



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Berkley-Scale-with-Tape/16637411





I try to adjust mine for 27lbs but take anything over 25lbs. This has worked well for me in the last 10yrs of flying my TR-4. YMMV

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:50 PM,  <pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 

 Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 Thanks!!

 Steve

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 > On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 >

 > 3/27/2017

 >

 > Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:

 >

 > 1) ".... he had  noted the problem and fixed it..."

 >

 > I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?). This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3 weldments.

 >

 > See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a bright light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.

 >

 > I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.

 >

 > Any questions?

 >

 > OC

 >

 > =============================================

 >

 > From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)

 > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM

 > To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 >

 > I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened  stud . Mine was made a

 > few months later by Lyle and he had  noted the problem and fixed it, so i

 > guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series

 >

 >

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>

 
	


 

 ====================================

 List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

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  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

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 ====================================

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           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Wrong Walmart link. THIS is the one I have



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Eagle-Claw-Scale-with-Tape-Measure-50-lb/45087468



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  FWIW Rich told me to adjust the nose gear friction to between 20 and 35lbs of break force with 27lb being optimal. He did say that 20lbs was an absolute minimum, that 20lbs might not work in some cases and not to worry about being super accurate. I still have the cheap Walmart fish weight scale he got for me in El Salvador just like this one:



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Berkley-Scale-with-Tape/16637411





I try to adjust mine for 27lbs but take anything over 25lbs. This has worked well for me in the last 10yrs of flying my TR-4. YMMV

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:50 PM,  <pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 

 Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 Thanks!!

 Steve

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 > On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 >

 > 3/27/2017

 >

 > Hello Keith, Thanks for your input. You wrote:

 >

 > 1) ".... he had  noted the problem and fixed it..."

 >

 > I don't think so. Your picture appears to also show a thin AN320-12 shear type castle nut in place with a fairly thin washer stack up (Bellevilles?). This would be consistent with the same length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub as my #1 Lyle gear. I have seen no evidence that Lyle changed the length of the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub until (at my request) he made it a bit longer for my #2 and #3 weldments.

 >

 > See the attached picture of the vertical stub on my #1 Lyle nose gear. I initially thought that the 3/4 inch diameter portion of the vertical stub was a machined out and threaded continuation of the vertical stub steel immediately above it (all one solid piece). I later learned that I was wrong and that the 3/4 inch diameter portion was, in fact, a separately obtained bolt whose head (maybe machined round first) was inserted into a hole in the steel above it and welded into place. Only after removing my #1 Lyle gear from the plane and examining the end of the vertical stub with a bright light and a magnifying glass was I able to see the evidence of a weld bead.

 >

 > I speculate that Lyle obtained these bolts from McMaster-Carr and that the quality control of the original manufacturer of these bolts was not pristine. The cotter pin holes were not exactly through the center of the bolt (I have noticed a bit of this on the bolts in my #2 and #3 Lyle gears as well) and the cotter pin hole in the end of the bolt in my #1 Lyle gear was too close to the end of the bolt for my comfort.

 >

 > Any questions?

 >

 > OC

 >

 > =============================================

 >

 > From: Keith.Miller(at)esa.int (Keith.Miller(at)esa.int)

 > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:45 AM

 > To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 >

 > I think it was a bit a bad luck with OC 's shortened  stud . Mine was made a

 > few months later by Lyle and he had  noted the problem and fixed it, so i

 > guess it depends upon when it was made in the production series

 >

 >

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   <4-9-16 CAMERA 003.JPG>

 
	


 

 ====================================

 List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?KIS-List

 ====================================

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ====================================

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

OC wrote: "This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface." Heed these WORDS OF WISDOM!!!  If you have experienced noticeable shimmy, I recommend you replace the bolts/pin that hold the nose gear "H" bracket.



With the nose elevated so no weight is on the nose gear, remove the bolts/pin and check them for any signs of failure. Especially the rear ones. Without magnafluxing or some other NDI, you probably won't be able to tell if they are failing. That is why I feel it isn't even worth inspecting them, just replace the bolts with new ones.

Cheap insurance.



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  3/27/2017

 

 Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"

 

 This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.

 See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this email.

 

 This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface.

 

 I recommend:

 

 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)

 

 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.

 

 3)  Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the sharpie.

 

 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.

 

 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.

 

 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.

 

 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire to the ground.

 

  Go fly the plane.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 =======

 

 From: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 

 Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 Thanks!!

 Steve

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Oh, and inspect the "H" bracket for any crack or sign of potential failure. 



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Galin Hernandez <galinhdz(at)gmail.com (galinhdz(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  OC wrote: "This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface." Heed these WORDS OF WISDOM!!!  If you have experienced noticeable shimmy, I recommend you replace the bolts/pin that hold the nose gear "H" bracket.



With the nose elevated so no weight is on the nose gear, remove the bolts/pin and check them for any signs of failure. Especially the rear ones. Without magnafluxing or some other NDI, you probably won't be able to tell if they are failing. That is why I feel it isn't even worth inspecting them, just replace the bolts with new ones.

Cheap insurance.



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  3/27/2017

 

 Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"

 

 This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.

 See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this email.

 

 This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface.

 

 I recommend:

 

 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)

 

 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.

 

 3)  Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the sharpie.

 

 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.

 

 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.

 

 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.

 

 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire to the ground.

 

  Go fly the plane.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 =======

 

 From: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 

 Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 Thanks!!

 Steve

aeromomentum(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Hi OC,



In general you should have from 10% (max aft CG) to 25% (max forward CG) on the nose gear.



Assuming your empty weight is a portly 903 lbs and you are at max forward CG, you should have no more than 225 lbs on your nose gear.  My guess is even at full empty your CG is still not at the front limit.  So you (like most every TR-1) still have too much weight on the nose gear.  You really should move the main gear more forward.  Based on 10% on the nose gear at max gross and max aft CG the main should be about 70.5 inches.  I would go with about 71 inches. You really will like landing and taking off much more with this main gear location.  Plus the loads and stress on the nose gear will be much less.



Also keep in mind that when I checked the nose gear in 1999 (version 2.1, streamlined tube with added side plates) most everything did not meet FAR part 23 requirements.  This includes the arms, pins and bolts along with the actual tube.  I don't think most of these parts were upgraded with version 3.X.



Mark K.



--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:



 Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com, "TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com>, "KETTERING MARK" <aeromomentum(at)yahoo.com>

 Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 6:29 PM

 

 

 "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 

 3/26/2017

 

 Hello Mark K, Thanks for your input. You wrote:

 

 1) "Have you moved you main gear forward?"

 

 Yes, I wedged it forward with flox. The main landing gear

 axles are 72.25 

 inches aft of the 0.00 datum point.

 That datum point is, in turn, 32.00 inches forward of the

 engine cowling 

 joggle on the fuselage.

 

 2) "How much weight do you have on your nose gear?"

 

 Right now, in operational configuration and without

 reweighing, I don't 

 know.

 

 The original empty aircraft weighing showed 242 pounds on

 the nose gear. 

 Since then there have been a few misc items (quart of oil,

 jar for fuel 

 testing, rags, etc.)

 that are normally kept in the right baggage well.

 

 Also there are some other misc items (hand held radio, small

 tool bag, water 

 bottle, roll of tape, etc.) that have taken up permanent

 lodging on the hat 

 shelf aft of the seats.

 

 Not too long ago I double bagged sand into two kitchen

 sliding lock plastic 

 gallon bags (they totaled 23 pounds) and placed them over

 the battery box in 

 the far right rear corner of the right baggage well (I

 mostly fly solo in 

 the left seat) because I was unhappy that the nose gear was

 descending to 

 meet the runway too quickly after the main gear touched

 down. I am not sure 

 if that has helped, or if so how much.

 

 3) "The geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some

 tweaking to reduce 

 shimmy."

 

 Can you please elaborate on the contribution of the pivot

 angle axis on 

 shimmy and how one would go about tweaking that angle in a

 KIS TR-1? Thanks.

 

 Also a reminder that my shimmy problem with strut #2 was my

 fault for not 

 tightening the friction nut enough and I have had no shimmy

 problems since 

 installing strut #3 and using 27 pounds as a base figure for

 setting the 

 friction nut.

 

 Also in my listing of the design / manufacturing defects in

 the #1 strut in 

 paragraph 1 below I forget to mention that the off center

 cotter pin hole 

 was also so close to the end of the vertical stub that I was

 concerned about 

 the possibility of break out.

 

 OC

 

 PS: I have your last name spelled Kettering in some old

 places in my 

 computer. Has there been a change?

 

 ========================================

 

 From: M Ketteing

 Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 12:30 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 ; TRICKEL MARK

 Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 

 

 Hello OC,

 

 How much weight do you have on your nose gear?  Have

 you moved you main gear 

 forward?  As you may know the more weight on the nose

 the more energy to the 

 shimmy.  With more energy the less effective the

 friction damping.  The 

 geometry (pivot axis angle) could maybe use some tweaking to

 reduce shimmy.

 

 Mark K.

 

 --------------------------------------------

 On Sun, 3/26/17, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 wrote:

 

 Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com,

 "TRICKEL MARK" <marktrickel(at)gmail.com>

 Date: Sunday, March 26, 2017, 11:45 AM

 

 

 "Owen Baker " <bakerocb(at)cox.net>

 

 3/26/2017

 

 Hello Mark, Yes. I can confirm this event. Here is the back

 story:

 

 1) I was never happy with my first (#1) Lyle Hendricks

 round

 tube nose gear

 strut. It was very sturdy, but it had two manufacturing /

 design defects in

 my opinion.

 

 a) The bottom vertical 3/4-16 threaded stud potion was too

 short. This meant

 that a thin AN320-12  castle nut must be used instead

 of the normal

 thickness AN310-12 castle nut. This further meant that the

 total nut-to-stud

 thread interface holding the aluminum shoe and any washer

 stack up into

 place was pretty limited. I was concerned that that

 interface could fail and

 the entire shoe and nose wheel could fall off in flight.

 

 b) The cotter pin hole through the bottom of that stud did

 not pass through

 the center of the stud. This off set meant that the pin

 would not pass

 through the normal castle notches in the AN320-12 nut. A

 person had to grind

 / file the nut notches wider in order for the cotter pin to

 pass through the

 nut. This had two effects: ONE) The nut could not be

 rotated

 one notch at a

 time to adjust the friction keeping the shoe from shimmying

 on landing roll

 out unless each pair of notches was ground or filed wider.

 TWO) Grinding or

 filing all pairs of notches wider further reduced the

 nut-to-stud thread

 interface.

 

 2) So my solution after over 500 flight hours with no

 problems other than

 dealing with the two irritating issues described above was

 to have Lyle make

 for me a new nose gear strut (#2) with modifications to

 eliminate the two

 issues. I also had Lyle make some other design

 modifications

 to this #2

 strut assembly such as a longer threaded portion at the top

 of the

 compression rod and a welded cross bar at the bottom of the

 rod. The longer

 threaded portion at the top of the rod gave more vertical

 adjustment

 opportunity for the rod and the welded bar permitted one to

 hold the rod

 from rotating when wrenching nuts at the top of the rod.

 

 3) The #2 strut assembly was installed and I set off on its

 first test

 flight. Unfortunately, not having any numerical figure

 available to measure

 the shimmy prevention friction for the shoe, I used the

 TFAR

 (That Feels

 About Right) criteria in tightening the AN310-12 nut

 holding

 the (new to me)

 two Belleville washers up against the aluminum shoe. TFAR

 worked fine for a

 few touch and go landings at an outlying field, but when I

 returned to my

 home field (KHEF Manassas Virginia) for one final landing

 trouble showed up.

 

 4) At a very slow speed on the final landing roll out the

 nose wheel began

 to shimmy violently from side to side. This shimmy broke

 the

 two aluminum

 nose wheel brackets at the bottom of the fire wall and

 allowed the strut

 assembly to flop over sideways and the airplane nose to be

 lowered to the

 runway surface. The damage consisted of grinding off a

 small

 portion of the

 bottom of the #2 strut weldment, grinding off a bit of each

 wooden propeller

 tip, and some scrapes off the bottom of the spinner, lower

 engine cowl, and

 one of the main landing gear wheel pants. This event falls

 into the

 categories of: "No good deed goes unpunished" or "If it

 ain't broke, don't

 fix it". Take your choice.

 

 5) The airplane was recovered to my hangar, Lyle graciously

 agreed to build

 me strut assembly #3, Prince Aircraft repaired the

 propeller

 tips, I

 replaced the spinner, repaired the engine cowling and the

 wheel pants, and

 had them painted. I put everything back together once I had

 all pieces in

 hand and used a 27 pound pull at the axle as my base figure

 for measuring

 the friction for tightening the AN310-12 nut. I flew again

 for the first

 time since the reported event on 10/18/2016. No nose wheel

 strut problems

 since then. Thanks again go to Lyle.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 =====================================

 

 From: mark_trickel

 Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2017 3:57 AM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 

 

 http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/08/kis-tr-1-n660c-incident-occurred-august.html

 

 

 OC?

 

 MT

 

 

 

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pastormac62

Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 71
Location: Indiana

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Thank you for the info!  I just got back from a 10 hour flight time with several landings.  I wish we could do a fly in weekend some where for especially for us novice TR-1 owners. It would be great to just here from other experienced owners!!

Steve 



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 27, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net> wrote:

 

 3/27/2017

 

 Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"

 

 This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.

 See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this email.

 

 This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface.

 

 I recommend:

 

 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)

 

 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.

 

 3)  Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the sharpie.

 

 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.

 

 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.

 

 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.

 

 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire to the ground.

 

  Go fly the plane.

 

 Any questions?

 

 OC

 

 ================================

 

 From: pastormac(at)comcast.net

 Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM

 To: kis-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 

 

 

 Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 Thanks!!

 Steve 

 <IMG_9929.JPG>

galinhdz(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

Sun-N-Fun is coming up. A GREAT way to meet up. I will be there Friday and Sunday.



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 7:36 PM,  <pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 

 Thank you for the info!  I just got back from a 10 hour flight time with several landings.  I wish we could do a fly in weekend some where for especially for us novice TR-1 owners. It would be great to just here from other experienced owners!!

 Steve

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

 > On Mar 27, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Owen Baker <bakerocb(at)cox.net (bakerocb(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 >

 > 3/27/2017

 >

 > Hello Steve, You wrote: "Is there an adjustment I can make?"

 >

 > This is very dangerous. DO NOT FLY THIS PLANE until the friction nut on the bottom of the nose gear has been properly adjusted.

 > See the photo from Keith Miller (thanks Keith) that is attached to this email.

 >

 > This shimmy can become violent enough to damage the nose gear linkages, collapse the nose gear, and cause the nose of the airplane to fall down and contact the runway surface.

 >

 > I recommend:

 >

 > 1) Elevate the nose of the plane so that the nose tire is off the ground. (Contact me if needed for tips on how to do this.)

 >

 > 2) Attach a fish scale to the shoe holding the nose wheel in the vicinity of the wheel axle. See how many pounds of pull that it takes to move the shoe from side to side. This is to establish what the friction level is now. If it is several pounds less than 27 pounds (which it probably is because of the shimmy) you must adjust the friction level.

 >

 > 3)  Use a black sharpie pen to number the nut notch above the cotter pin head as notch 1. Make a vertical mark on the shoe above notch 1 with the sharpie.

 >

 > 4) Remove the cotter pin holding the large AN320-12 castle nut from turning. Go around the nut with the sharpie numbering each notch in sequence. This is so that you can keep track of the notch that is under the vertical mark.

 >

 > 5) Using a 1 1/8 inch box wrench tighten the nut one notch. Use an ice pick or similar item to ensure that the new nut notch and the cotter pin hole through the vertical stub are aligned. Leave the ice pick in place.

 >

 > 6) Use the fish scale again to move the shoe back and forth to ensure that you have adjusted the friction to the vicinity of 27 pounds.

 >

 > 7) Remove the ice pick and repeat 5 and 6 above if needed. When you have the desired friction level set, install a new cotter pin and lower the nose tire to the ground.

 >

 >  Go fly the plane.

 >

 > Any questions?

 >

 > OC

 >

 > ================================

 >

 > From: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 1:50 PM

 > To: kis-list(at)matronics.com (kis-list(at)matronics.com)

 > Subject: Re: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

 >

 > --> KIS-List message posted by: pastormac(at)comcast.net (pastormac(at)comcast.net)

 >

 > Hi Guys,

 > Speaking of the nose gear. I'm getting quite a bit of shimmy on take off and landing. Is there an adjustment I can make?

 > Thanks!!

 > Steve

 



 	  Quote: 	
		   <IMG_9929.JPG>

 
	


 

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bakerocb

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 727
Location: FAIRFAX VA

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Can anybody confirm this?

3/28/2017



Hello Mark, Thanks for your input. You wrote:



1) "Assuming your empty weight is a portly 903 lbs and you are at max 

forward CG, you should have no more than 225 lbs on your nose gear."



My empty weight is 972 pounds with 242 pounds on the nose landing gear. The 

empty weight CG is at 60.10 inches. The aircraft manual shows 61.50 inches 

as the forward operating CG limit.



2) "In general you should have from 10% (max aft CG) to 25% (max forward CG) 

on the nose gear."



At empty weight I have 24.9 percent of the aircrafts total empty weight of 

972 pounds on the nose gear with the CG at 60.10 inches, i.4 inches forward 

of the 61.50 operating CG limit.



3) "You really should move the main gear more forward." and "I would go with 

about 71 inches."



I agree. How do you recommend that this should be accomplished?** I have 

already used a flox wedge to move the main landing forward to 72.25 inches.



4) "I don't think most of these parts were upgraded with version 3.X."



I think that the Lyle #1 and #2 nose landing gear made for me were sturdy 

enough. Lyle beefed up the aluminum linkages when he made #3 for me.



OC



*PS: I have given some casual consideration to having Grove make a custom 

main landing gear for me that would move the axle locations forward, but 

have not pursued it. See here:



http://www.groveaircraft.com/designguide.html



and here:



http://www.groveaircraft.com/layout.html



================================



From: M Ketteing

Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 5:07 PM

To: kis-list(at)matronics.com ; TRICKEL MARK

Subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?






Hi OC,



In general you should have from 10% (max aft CG) to 25% (max forward CG) on 

the nose gear.



Assuming your empty weight is a portly 903 lbs and you are at max forward 

CG, you should have no more than 225 lbs on your nose gear.  My guess is 

even at full empty your CG is still not at the front limit.  So you (like 

most every TR-1) still have too much weight on the nose gear.  You really 

should move the main gear more forward.  Based on 10% on the nose gear at 

max gross and max aft CG the main should be about 70.5 inches.  I would go 

with about 71 inches. You really will like landing and taking off much more 

with this main gear location.  Plus the loads and stress on the nose gear 

will be much less.



Also keep in mind that when I checked the nose gear in 1999 (version 2.1, 

streamlined tube with added side plates) most everything did not meet FAR 

part 23 requirements.  This includes the arms, pins and bolts along with the 

actual tube.  I don't think most of these parts were upgraded with version 

3.X.



Mark K.

mark_trickel

Joined: 13 Dec 2011
Posts: 101
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:42 am Post subject: Re: Can anybody confirm this?

OC – Thank you for fielding a few of my goofy questions.



On Gear #1 – Thanks for pointing out there is a shoulder that the shoe fits around to take into account. I do not have a nose gear on my TR-1.



No, I did not mean to try and come up with dozens of washer combinations in order to get the right torque and have the cotter pin slot line up on a single oversized slot. I meant that the Belleville spring disks have a little leeway in them and a stack including them on this gear may have been adequate and you may have been able to zero in on the single oversized cotter pin slot. If you currently have the Belleville spring disks stacked up against the aluminum shoe on gear #3 they will eventually wear into the shoe and the torque setting will diminish and a shimmy may again develop. Even the thinnest of steel washers between the Belleville washers and the shoe would be better than none.



Belleville washers are commonly used in industrial equipment as well as consumer goods where a moving joint needs to maintain a given tension. I recently scrapped out an old lawnmower and was surprised to find many them in use. Rich included them on his homemade nose gear that still remains on the stolen KIS TR-1 #1. 



I asked about the prop because some of the Prince P-tips are carbon fiber covered. I have recent experience working with carbon and that stuff is like steel. I did not mention the engine, when it comes to airplanes and the KIS project I’ve been around the block a few times and I know a wood prop strike is different than a metal prop strike. I understand the prop was factory repaired I just thought it was unusual.



I understand your desire to have a new main gear made mainly because canting the current gear forward enough to put the gear in the proper position will most likely result in the center part of the gear hanging below the well-depression molded into the bottom of the fuselage. This would require a very custom fairing to smooth the airfow under the belly. If you are considering this move I would consult with Lyle as he was the supplier of the main gears to Richard. Plus, I believe he would be a little more reasonable than the Grove guy. I have redesigned the rudder pedal set up on my TR-1 to lower the floor and make it a little more comfortable and I found that Matco master cylinder prices are considerably less than Grove.



A little history on the TR-1 landing gear:

Rich introduced his new airplane at Oshkosh in 1991, it had a carbon fiber main gear and his home-made nose gear. The airplane also had a 80 hp VW up front. Kits were selling  pretty good and the first builders were flying by 1993. Metal parts were supplied by Ken Brock and a nose gear similar to Rich’s was designed and produced. Builders that were able to either go to the factory and fly Rich’s plane or those who had above average piloting skills did OK. Some builders were able to get Rich to come and do the first flights and get a few important pointers. But there were pilots that did not have the ability to figure it out quickly and a bunch of nose gears were getting banged. Back at the factory Rich and the engineers started beefing up the gear. I think there were three versions of the first gear. But still nose gears were getting banged. The engineers Nate and Vance did not always agree but Vance came up with the final articulated arrangement in 1996 or ‘97, and it was put into production. Builders on their own came up with the idea to extend the elevator and this fix was a great help but not a total solution. Sales slowed and despite Tri-R’s emphasis on the Super Cruiser there just wasn’t enough business to keep the company going. In 2000, the designs were sold to Pulsar. During the Tri-R years nobody was able to figure out what was going on, not until a certain young engineer bought a flying example of the TR-1. And it didn’t take to long for him to add the final piece to the puzzle – the main gear was in the wrong place! Weight on the nose gear needed to be reduced. Now those who frequent the forum are at least aware of the situation but there are many who builders and owners that are not computer savvy and are unaware and therein lies the problem. 



MT

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