 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mercecedes116(at)gmail.co
Guest
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:22 am Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
 |
|
Hi all, I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150 Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting article. And no one cared.
In the poh of a 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps. Loved to slip it did..
I'll see if I can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
|
|
The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground.
Thanks for that info, Del V.
After Boyd Young's post about horizontal stab placement of VGs, I did a Google search. Discovered the reason most military transport aircraft have high tails is to keep them in clean air when flaps are deployed. Makes sense to me. The other reason, that was not mentioned in my search, was loading and off loading through a tail gate.
The large flaps on the MKIII are in line with the tail section. Not hard, for me, to believe they'll divert the air off the tail, full flaps, engine at idle power. When it happened to me, at 85 mph, there was no resistance, no feel in the elevators. A discomforting feeling when diving straight down with a fat passenger. 
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
|
|
I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff.
The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would provide a cambered surface.
The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
I would love to see that article again if you can find it.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM
Hi all,
I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now
likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In
an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John
Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150
Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had
hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting
article. And no one cared. In the poh of a
1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full
flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club
had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail
with disturbed air and caused the plane to become
uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps.
Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I
can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
|
|
Yep...Bill
No wild geese no gosling's!!
Guys like Homer and Dennis and Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
our field of flying,..,. I tell the GA buddies who like to rib
me...."just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!" Herb
On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
| Quote: |
I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff.
The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would provide a cambered surface.
The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
I would love to see that article again if you can find it.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM
Hi all,
I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now
likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In
an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John
Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150
Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had
hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting
article. And no one cared. In the poh of a
1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full
flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club
had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail
with disturbed air and caused the plane to become
uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps.
Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I
can find that Experimenter . Good luck all.
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
|
|
Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!"
Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration of s*** for it with my blessing.
Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other" kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's, flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines, or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to fly in... I thought all that was just so low class.
Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As I had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical looking, and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another, I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features and capabilities it has.
So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172, and I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but I try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Yep...Bill
No wild geese no gosling's!!
Guys like Homer and Dennis and
Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
our field of flying,..,. I tell
the GA buddies who like to rib
me...."just a weed eater that flies!!
and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!" Herb
On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle
wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> I remember that article !!! He had
some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and
a bunch of other wild stuff.
>
> The tubes served as a poor boy
double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being
round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was,
they would provide a cambered surface.
>
> The article went on to say he was
a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your
average airplane modifier or something. It looked like
something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that
the article said he made very significant reductions in
minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I
remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because
he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
>
> I would love to see that article
again if you can find it.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: tail
stall and vg's
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 5,
2017, 8:22 AM
>
> Hi all,
> I've been watching the
thread and am glad Big John now
> likes the vg things. I use
homemade ones. In
> an Experimenter EAA mag
from the early nineties John
> Dresseldoff reported on his
work with vg's and a 150
> Cessna. He modified the
wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
> and had slow flight down in
the mid 20mph range. He had
> hundreds of vg's on the
wing alone.Very interesting
> article. And no one
cared. In the poh of a
> 1952 170B Cessna I had it
was stated no slips with full
> flaps. Hand written in, so
I went looking why. The 170 club
> had found, after a fatal,
that the flaps blanketed the tail
> with disturbed air and
caused the plane to become
> uncontrollable near the
ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
> wing 170 did not have this
issue as it had very small flaps.
> Loved to slip it
did.. I'll see if I
> can find that Experimenter
. Good luck all.
>
>
>
>
>
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
russk50(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: tail stall and vg's |
|
|
BILL, MY CONGRATS TO YOU FOR BEING SO HONEST! - and confessing prior “faults”
Fair winds,
Russ
| Quote: | On Apr 5, 2017, at 3:14 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!"
Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration of s*** for it with my blessing.
Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other" kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's, flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines, or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to fly in... I thought all that was just so low class.
Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As I had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical looking, and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another, I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features and capabilities it has.
So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172, and I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but I try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy <herbgh(at)nctc.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: tail stall and vg's
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM
<herbgh(at)nctc.com>
Yep...Bill
No wild geese no gosling's!!
Guys like Homer and Dennis and
Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing
our field of flying,..,. I tell
the GA buddies who like to rib
me...."just a weed eater that flies!!
and you are just a medical from
flying one yourselves!" Herb
On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle
wrote:
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo(at)sbcglobal.net>
>
> I remember that article !!! He had
some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and
a bunch of other wild stuff.
>
> The tubes served as a poor boy
double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being
round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was,
they would provide a cambered surface.
>
> The article went on to say he was
a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your
average airplane modifier or something. It looked like
something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that
the article said he made very significant reductions in
minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I
remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because
he pulled out all the stops and went for broke.
>
> I would love to see that article
again if you can find it.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal <mercecedes116(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: tail
stall and vg's
> To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, April 5,
2017, 8:22 AM
>
> Hi all,
> I've been watching the
thread and am glad Big John now
> likes the vg things. I use
homemade ones. In
> an Experimenter EAA mag
from the early nineties John
> Dresseldoff reported on his
work with vg's and a 150
> Cessna. He modified the
wing tips, the control surfaces, etc
> and had slow flight down in
the mid 20mph range. He had
> hundreds of vg's on the
wing alone.Very interesting
> article. And no one
cared. In the poh of a
> 1952 170B Cessna I had it
was stated no slips with full
> flaps. Hand written in, so
I went looking why. The 170 club
> had found, after a fatal,
that the flaps blanketed the tail
> with disturbed air and
caused the plane to become
> uncontrollable near the
ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight
> wing 170 did not have this
issue as it had very small flaps.
> Loved to slip it
did.. I'll see if I
> can find that Experimenter
. Good luck all.
>
>
>
>
>
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
|
| | - The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
