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Antennas and other Dark Arts

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kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Hi



My -10 has three Comant anntennas (two bent whip comm) and one cvat's whiskers VOR/ILS under the tail.



For my new project I have been wondering about alternatives. For example, does anyone have real world experience wit the Bob Archer wing tip NAV and COMM antennas. I have an Archer NAV antenna that I didn't install. 



Has anyone tried bonding a comm antenna into the -10 fiberglass canopy. Is this even possible? 



It would be nice to hide the antennas if it can be done effectively. I am quite interested in what others have done.



Inquiring minds need to know



Les



C-GCWZ flying

C-GROK some assembly required

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

I have the Archer Nav antennas...one in each wing.  I have a Garmin 430 and

a Garmin SL30.  Reception is good, not great.  I have a splitter for the GS

signal.



I have Comant antennas for comm.



Rene'

801-721-6080



--

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Keep in mind that VORs transmit horizontally polarized signals, while coms are vertically polarized. So you want the antennas the same way. There are lots of small horizontal GS antennas embedded in the fiberglass roof, or even at the top of the windscreen on some Cessnas. They work fine. For com, you'll need to get it as vertical as possible. Most of the vertical antennas are 1/4 wave, and need a good ground plane to work. This will be tricky on the cabin roof.

I have two Archers-the VOR antenna in one wingtip, the com in the other. Make sure you follow installation directions and have a good connection between the 'ground leg' and the wing rib. For the com, I mounted the ground leg as high as I could, then bent the leading edge down as far as possible, to get at least some vertical polarization. I'd say the nav antenna works fine-rock solid on ILS signals, and almost as good as an external dipole on distant VORs. The wingtip com is just fair - not vertical enough. While my belly whip gets the ATIS 30 miles out, I need to be within 20 miles for the wingtip. I use it for my backup com, and for that I think it's okay.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:27 pm Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

I have Archer antenna in each wing tip for GTN650 and SL30. Seems to work fine.



A friend put Archer com antenna in one wing and nav in the other. The com has to be mounted with vertical orientation.



It worked okay until he used a metallic paint on wing tip. That cut his usable range down under 10 miles.



-sent from the I-droid implanted in my forearm

 

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Rene <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "Rene" <rene(at)felker.com (rene(at)felker.com)>

 

 I have the Archer Nav antennas...one in each wing.  I have a Garmin 430 and

 a Garmin SL30.  Reception is good, not great.  I have a splitter for the GS

 signal.

 

 I have Comant antennas for comm.

 

 Rene'

 [url=tel:801-721-6080]801-721-6080[/url]

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

The Archer wingtip NAV antennas work pretty darned well. The Comm's will

"work" (and I use that term loosely), but not anywhere near the same as an

external whip or bent whip. Same with the bonded in versions in the canopy,

gear leg, et.al that have been tried in every configuration for many years.

Save yourself the hassle (believe me when I say "been there done that" on

both my own planes as well as customer planes) and just put the COMM

antennas externally on the fuselage.  It'd be sad to have good radios

(whichever ones you use) be hamstrung by sub-par antennas.  



Just my  2 cents as usual (but this one I have some rather extensive

firsthand knowledge of). 



Cheers,

Stein

--

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:03 pm Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

My experience matches Stein's advice.



I originally had an Archer Comm and Nav with the Comm mounted as 

vertical as possible in the tip per everyone's advice.  They were both 

attached to the G430.   It 'worked' but found it often lacking the 

necessary range at times.  I also had an SL30 with a bent Comant which 

quickly became the primary Comm radio.  The G430 Comm was relegated to 

ATIS and Ground.



But the whole purpose of 2 radios is to have backup, right? At the 

furthest possible distance from home on my longest CC flight to date, my 

SL30 Comm failed.  Turned out that the G430 with the Archer Comm just 

wasn't enough to comfortably fly across the US on IFR plans in VMC 

conditions.



So, while I was comfortable flying with one Comm (and a handheld), I had 

to stop and switch antennas before we could continue.  The difference 

was immediately noticeable; the bent Comant was far superior to the 

Archer Comm on the same radio.



When I got home I installed a second Comant on the belly.  Though there 

are many variables in radio/antenna installations I slowly began to 

realize that the G430 performed slightly better than the SL30, using 

virtually identical antennas.    The SL30 remains my primary but if I 

ever have a reception/transmission issues, I go to the G430.  (the last 

step would be to swap antennas and see if that situation remains the same).



I would add that I split the Archer Nav antenna between the 2 boxes and 

it performs satisfactorily, particularly during RNAV approaches.



Bill "wondering if my panel is getting a bit long in the tooth like its 

pilot" Watson



On 4/5/2017 4:52 PM, Stein Bruch wrote:

[quote] 



 The Archer wingtip NAV antennas work pretty darned well. The Comm's will

 "work" (and I use that term loosely), but not anywhere near the same as an

 external whip or bent whip. Same with the bonded in versions in the canopy,

 gear leg, et.al that have been tried in every configuration for many years.

 Save yourself the hassle (believe me when I say "been there done that" on

 both my own planes as well as customer planes) and just put the COMM

 antennas externally on the fuselage.  It'd be sad to have good radios

 (whichever ones you use) be hamstrung by sub-par antennas.



 Just my  2 cents as usual (but this one I have some rather extensive

 firsthand knowledge of).



 Cheers,

 Stein

 --

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Bill,

You could take that Archer com antenna, and lay it flat in the wing tip 

and use it as a second nav antenna. That would eliminate need for a 

splitter and give each nav radio close to double the signal strength.



On 4/5/2017 4:03 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I would add that I split the Archer Nav antenna between the 2 boxes and

 it performs satisfactorily, particularly during RNAV approaches.



 Bill "wondering if my panel is getting a bit long in the tooth like its

 pilot" Watson

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

kearney

Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Hi



Thanks to everyone for the comments. I may try the wing tip Archer NAV antenna, perhaps two, rather than the whisker antenna.



This brings me to the comm antenna(s). Is there any significant difference between the RAMI and COMANT comm antennas?

Cheers



Les

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Just out of curiosity, two VOR antennas implies you plan on two VOR receivers.  Wondering why you would do that. 



Carl

No whiskers on any of my planes and never will be!



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 6, 2017, at 11:41 AM, kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi

 

 Thanks to everyone for the comments. I may try the wing tip Archer NAV antenna, perhaps two, rather than the whisker antenna.

 

 This brings me to the comm antenna(s). Is there any significant difference between the RAMI and COMANT comm antennas?

 

 

 Cheers

 

 Les

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468089#468089

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

Thanks for that Kelly.

Honestly, I'm rarely using the Nav radios except for those Class B ILSs 

where the reception is more than adequate.

On 4/5/2017 8:19 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Bill,

 You could take that Archer com antenna, and lay it flat in the wing 

 tip and use it as a second nav antenna. That would eliminate need for 

 a splitter and give each nav radio close to double the signal strength.

 On 4/5/2017 4:03 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

> 

>

> I would add that I split the Archer Nav antenna between the 2 boxes and

> it performs satisfactorily, particularly during RNAV approaches.

>

> Bill "wondering if my panel is getting a bit long in the tooth like its

> pilot" Watson

>

---

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Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: Antennas and other Dark Arts

In my case it's because the G430 and the SL30 both have Nav radios that 

are rarely used.  That's why the the performance of one split antenna to 

drive both works fine.

Though Kelly's thought of converting the Archer Comm to Nav would be a 

slightly better backup situation than I have now.

On 4/6/2017 12:40 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Just out of curiosity, two VOR antennas implies you plan on two VOR receivers.  Wondering why you would do that.

 Carl

 No whiskers on any of my planes and never will be!

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 11:41 AM, kearney <kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

>

> 

>

> Hi

>

> Thanks to everyone for the comments. I may try the wing tip Archer NAV antenna, perhaps two, rather than the whisker antenna.

>

> This brings me to the comm antenna(s). Is there any significant difference between the RAMI and COMANT comm antennas?

> Cheers

>

> Les

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468089#468089

>

---

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Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Antennas and other Dark Arts

 	  Kellym wrote: 	
		  Bill,

You could take that Archer com antenna, and lay it flat in the wing tip 

and use it as a second nav antenna. That would eliminate need for a 

splitter and give each nav radio close to double the signal strength.



On 4/5/2017 4:03 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I would add that I split the Archer Nav antenna between the 2 boxes and

 it performs satisfactorily, particularly during RNAV approaches.



 Bill "wondering if my panel is getting a bit long in the tooth like its

 pilot" Watson



	
	


Remember that the com antenna is a bit (10%) shorter than the nav antenna, so it's not optimized for nav frequencies. Whether it's better or worse than the 2x loss of a splitter, I don't know.

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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