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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Vic, not to dispute your desire to better aerate the primer stream, but I think you would get much better results following Greg Wrobel's <clouddog22(at)gmail.com> advice of making sure to pull the prop through after priming a good number of times. Having started in temps down near zero, I have learned the hard way they just priming the fool out of the engine and then pushing the starter button can easily run you out of air. Worse, the best way to get a good fire in the engine bay is to do this, and then keep hoping for that miracle start on the very last dregs of air. Yes, I did that.
Lastly, and I assume you have an intake drain kit installed, leave that valve open when priming, at least in summer anyway. If you prime when standing outside the aircraft (Yak-50) then walk around to pull it through, by the time you have done that, the excess fuel is running out the intake drain preventing a wad of fuel from being sucked into a cylinder. Shut off drain valve, go start.
That said, there are many methods, mostly all meet with success, but pulling through is a key element to a quick start.
Mark
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Mark,
WE don´t have problems starting the M 14 after my mod. It was just an idea for improvements as I think a better spray shape from the primer jet may be a lot better for starting than a stream of fuel running down the case inside. That was told by a few here leading to poor starting. As drilling extremely small holes in a jet is not exactly easy in stainless so fabricating a jet like in my pictures may be more practical in case there was a messed up jet.
Just when pressing the air start button we push the primer as well for the final prime - and while cranking when necessary.
Vic
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Sorry Vic, I am not aware of your mod, and I did not see your pictures.
My logic is as follows:
1. If your plan is not to prime the engine at all, but instead to start cranking it, and THEN prime it furiously while you are cranking, then changing the fuel primer nozzle to better atomize the stream would make a significant improvement, at least I would think.
2. If your plan is to prime the engine before it is cranking then the question becomes how long the fuel will stay atomized after it leaves the primer nozzle. Unlike an oil burner, we are not injecting fuel directly into a burner can for ignition. Instead it is going into the supercharger cavity where no matter what, it is going to hit some metal and start running down the sides, unless the engine has just been run and is hot.
On a typical day the engine should start within the second blade. If it goes longer than that, it really was not ready to start when you pushed the starter button, and you are playing a game of catch-up ball, while in the meantime you are quickly reducing your air bottle pressure.
If the engine is primed and pulled through before hitting the starter button, 2nd blade starts are the norm and not the exception. On a warm engine start, just touching the start button results in instantaneous ignition.
I've done it both ways ... prime and then just push the starter button throwing more prime in, and then cranking and hoping or doing the prime and pull through method. The former method does work. The latter method works better.
Personally I'll be very interested in hearing how a different primer nozzle works for you.
Best of luck,
Mark
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pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Mark,
I have never had any problems in starting the Yak52 in very cold weather.
Even after standing still for weeks. As our technician(Ricardas) is saying,
patience is all there is, i.e. Prime the engine on both sides, left 6 or 7
times, right 10 times. Get off the wing, do your walk around and crank the
prop at least 12 times with the drain valve CLOSED. Closed because otherwise
it will wipe away the oil from the bottom cilinder surfaces and the cilinder
heads resulting in "dry" running during the start of the engine.
Get in the plane, strap in prime 5 times on the right side and hit the
button(in practice after in total around 5 or 6 mins).....it will start
after 1 blade, guaranteed. Certainly with the automotive kit installed.
Just my 2 cents....
Hans O.
Op 26-04-17 17:35, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> schreef:
[quote]
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Vic, not to dispute your desire to better aerate the primer stream, but I
think you would get much better results following Greg Wrobel's
<clouddog22(at)gmail.com> advice of making sure to pull the prop through after
priming a good number of times. Having started in temps down near zero, I
have learned the hard way they just priming the fool out of the engine and
then pushing the starter button can easily run you out of air. Worse, the
best way to get a good fire in the engine bay is to do this, and then keep
hoping for that miracle start on the very last dregs of air. Yes, I did that.
Lastly, and I assume you have an intake drain kit installed, leave that valve
open when priming, at least in summer anyway. If you prime when standing
outside the aircraft (Yak-50) then walk around to pull it through, by the time
you have done that, the excess fuel is running out the intake drain preventing
a wad of fuel from being sucked into a cylinder. Shut off drain valve, go
start.
That said, there are many methods, mostly all meet with success, but pulling
through is a key element to a quick start.
Mark
--
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Vic
Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 115
Location: Southern Bavaria
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Reading the last postings I feel we do a LOT less priming for starting. Of course we do three or four shots of primer while turning the prop and do one shot when pressing the button and maybe two or three when the engine requires. But then no flying in winter or low temps here in Bavaria, as we don´t have to fly at all in bad weather. So I believe there is something good about a spray of fuel instead of producing a big puddle of gas low down in the case hoping for enough mixture for an ignition.
But this is just talking about ideas for improvements about the primer, not really absolutely necessary. But I do remember that some had troubles at starting due to f***ed up primer jets.
Vic
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richard.goode(at)russiana
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:50 pm Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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It is confusing if one refers to the positions on the primer as being
"right" and "left". Remember that on some Yaks these are reversed, and for
clarity one should talk about "system" (that is carburettor) and "cylinder"
(for priming).
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
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pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:04 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Afirm Richard. Sorry about that!
The routine creeped in...
Hans O.
Op 27-04-17 09:48 schreef Richard Goode
<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>:
[quote]
<richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>
It is confusing if one refers to the positions on the primer as being
"right" and "left". Remember that on some Yaks these are reversed, and for
clarity one should talk about "system" (that is carburettor) and
"cylinder"
(for priming).
Richard Goode Aerobatics
Rhodds Farm
Lyonshall
Hereford
HR5 3LW
Tel: +44 (0) 1544 340120
Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129
www.russianaeros.com
--
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Hans, not sure if we are talking about the same drain valve. What valve (that if you close) will wipe away the oil from the bottom cylinders?
Mark
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pa3arw(at)ziggo.nl
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: HS6 primer upgrade questions |
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Yeah, I¹m pretty sure we talk about the same thing. The valve to avoid a
hydro lock in the cylinders.
Right?
Hans O.
Op 27-04-17 17:59 schreef Bitterlich, Mark G CIV NAVAIR, WD
<owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of
mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>:
[quote]
<mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>
Hans, not sure if we are talking about the same drain valve. What valve
(that if you close) will wipe away the oil from the bottom cylinders?
Mark
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