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. Low Pass Engine Sputter

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Well, it was a good suggestion,  so I looked for the direct quote for operations in THIS country.



Please note, there is no requirement for any specific aircraft configuration, no specific speed, and no specific altitude required.



This quote is directly from the most recent Airman's Information Manual, published by the FAA.



4−3−12. Low Approach

a. A low approach (sometimes referred to as a low

pass) is the go−around maneuver following an

approach. Instead of landing or making a touch−and−

go, a pilot may wish to go around (low approach) in

order to expedite a particular operation (a series of

practice instrument approaches is an example of such

an operation). Unless otherwise authorized by ATC,

the low approach should be made straight ahead, with

no turns or climb made until the pilot has made a

thorough visual check for other aircraft in the area.

b. When operating within a Class B, Class C, and

Class D surface area, a pilot intending to make a low

approach should contact the tower for approval. This

request should be made prior to starting the final

approach.

c. When operating to an airport, not within a

Class B, Class C, and Class D surface area, a pilot

intending to make a low approach should, prior to

leaving the final approach fix inbound (nonprecision

approach) or the outer marker or fix used in lieu of the

outer marker inbound (precision approach), so advise

the FSS, UNICOM, or make a broadcast as

appropriate.

REFERENCE−AIM, Paragraph 4−1−9 , Traffic Advisory Practices

--

nigel.willson(at)yakdispl
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

I'm not going to argue over your rules over there, but I guess the crux of the matter is the legal interpretation of "approach"  and "go-around manoeuvre" in the FAA.



Over here the definition of "approach" is "with the intention of landing"......... i.e. an "approach to land". And "Go-around" implies a climbing manoeuvre, not one that goes parallel to the ground.....



All the EASA regs over here are so tight there is a glossary and definition of just about every aviation term!



Even so, there's a good adage over here in that where there is more than one "interpretation", the only time anyone ever finds out what it really means is when they are in court over it!



Regards, 

Nigel Willson

Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot



 

--

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:56 am Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Hi Nigel ... thank you for the informative exchange ... how does EASA handle touch and gos?



Typos courtesy of Siri



[quote] On Sep 8, 2017, at 14:44, Nigel Willson <nigel.willson(at)yakdisplay.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I'm not going to argue over your rules over there, but I guess the crux of the matter is the legal interpretation of "approach"  and "go-around manoeuvre" in the FAA.

 

 Over here the definition of "approach" is "with the intention of landing"......... i.e. an "approach to land". And "Go-around" implies a climbing manoeuvre, not one that goes parallel to the ground.....

 

 All the EASA regs over here are so tight there is a glossary and definition of just about every aviation term!

 

 Even so, there's a good adage over here in that where there is more than one "interpretation", the only time anyone ever finds out what it really means is when they are in court over it!

 

 Regards, 

 Nigel Willson

 Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot

 

 

 --

nigel.willson(at)yakdispl
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Touch and Go's are fine, because the pilots intention is to land, OR to do a go-around.



Specifically in SERA (Standardised European Rules of the Air), the ability to descend below 500ft is ONLY allowed when on an APPROACH (to land in accordance with normal aviation practice) at an airfield (which could be an airfield, or a farm strip).



If you specifically have no intention to land, or do a touch and go, or a GO-AROUND (a climbing manoeuvre following an Approach [to land remember!] in which the pilot elects not to land), then the exemption from the 500ft rule does not apply.



Specifically, your intention to do none of the above is conceived by you approaching in the wrong configuration, and/or at the wrong speed.



i.e. If you come in from a dive at aerobatic power doing 150kt when your landing speed is 70kt, you clearly had no intention of landing, and therefore the exemption to fly below 500ft does not apply. You are therefore breaking the Rules of the Air.



Some people also mis-interpret the "break to land", and treat that as a reason to do really low fly-pasts down the runway.



Again, specifically, a "break to land" is purely to enable the speed to be bled off in the subsequent climbing high angle of bank turn (i.e lots of drag) onto the downwind leg to get in a position (speed limiting range) to be able to lower the gear. Technically, the "break" along the runway is 500ft lower than the standard published circuit height for the airfield concerned, OR 500ft minimum - whichever is higher.



If someone wishes to do a "low fly-by", then specific permission (exemption from the rules) has to be obtained in advance from the AUTHORIITY (since they are the ONLY ones that can give you that permission to break the rules (ATC certainly cannot do this) for which a charge (i.e. MONEY) is made), and that permission will only be given for a specific date, time, place, pilot and aircraft as a one-off.



Even as a "Display Pilot" I have to abide by the rules, unless I have an exemption to either practice, or if at an actual display (and then a whole load of other rules also come into play)!

Regards, 

Nigel Willson

Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot



 

 



--

jackpot

Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Gentlemen. Not to say your inputs on low passes are not valid, but. The real question here was, and is,  what is causing the sputter on pull up. With the engine doing this what guarantees that it will not progress to a much worse condition. Go back to the original question. You have all been distracted from the original reason and question for the post. By saying don't make a low pass, then even a more problem solver would be to recommend park the airplane and just don't fly it again.  Not practical. But thank you all for the low pass legal posts. Gary G. N22YK. LAS



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Sep 8, 2017, at 13:29, Nigel Willson <nigel.willson(at)yakdisplay.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Touch and Go's are fine, because the pilots intention is to land, OR to do a go-around.

 

 Specifically in SERA (Standardised European Rules of the Air), the ability to descend below 500ft is ONLY allowed when on an APPROACH (to land in accordance with normal aviation practice) at an airfield (which could be an airfield, or a farm strip).

 

 If you specifically have no intention to land, or do a touch and go, or a GO-AROUND (a climbing manoeuvre following an Approach [to land remember!] in which the pilot elects not to land), then the exemption from the 500ft rule does not apply.

 

 Specifically, your intention to do none of the above is conceived by you approaching in the wrong configuration, and/or at the wrong speed.

 

 i.e. If you come in from a dive at aerobatic power doing 150kt when your landing speed is 70kt, you clearly had no intention of landing, and therefore the exemption to fly below 500ft does not apply. You are therefore breaking the Rules of the Air.

 

 Some people also mis-interpret the "break to land", and treat that as a reason to do really low fly-pasts down the runway.

 

 Again, specifically, a "break to land" is purely to enable the speed to be bled off in the subsequent climbing high angle of bank turn (i.e lots of drag) onto the downwind leg to get in a position (speed limiting range) to be able to lower the gear. Technically, the "break" along the runway is 500ft lower than the standard published circuit height for the airfield concerned, OR 500ft minimum - whichever is higher.

 

 If someone wishes to do a "low fly-by", then specific permission (exemption from the rules) has to be obtained in advance from the AUTHORIITY (since they are the ONLY ones that can give you that permission to break the rules (ATC certainly cannot do this) for which a charge (i.e. MONEY) is made), and that permission will only be given for a specific date, time, place, pilot and aircraft as a one-off.

 

 Even as a "Display Pilot" I have to abide by the rules, unless I have an exemption to either practice, or if at an actual display (and then a whole load of other rules also come into play)!

 

 

 Regards, 

 Nigel Willson

 Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Thank you Sir!

Typos courtesy of Siri



[quote] On Sep 8, 2017, at 16:29, Nigel Willson <nigel.willson(at)yakdisplay.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Touch and Go's are fine, because the pilots intention is to land, OR to do a go-around.

 

 Specifically in SERA (Standardised European Rules of the Air), the ability to descend below 500ft is ONLY allowed when on an APPROACH (to land in accordance with normal aviation practice) at an airfield (which could be an airfield, or a farm strip).

 

 If you specifically have no intention to land, or do a touch and go, or a GO-AROUND (a climbing manoeuvre following an Approach [to land remember!] in which the pilot elects not to land), then the exemption from the 500ft rule does not apply.

 

 Specifically, your intention to do none of the above is conceived by you approaching in the wrong configuration, and/or at the wrong speed.

 

 i.e. If you come in from a dive at aerobatic power doing 150kt when your landing speed is 70kt, you clearly had no intention of landing, and therefore the exemption to fly below 500ft does not apply. You are therefore breaking the Rules of the Air.

 

 Some people also mis-interpret the "break to land", and treat that as a reason to do really low fly-pasts down the runway.

 

 Again, specifically, a "break to land" is purely to enable the speed to be bled off in the subsequent climbing high angle of bank turn (i.e lots of drag) onto the downwind leg to get in a position (speed limiting range) to be able to lower the gear. Technically, the "break" along the runway is 500ft lower than the standard published circuit height for the airfield concerned, OR 500ft minimum - whichever is higher.

 

 If someone wishes to do a "low fly-by", then specific permission (exemption from the rules) has to be obtained in advance from the AUTHORIITY (since they are the ONLY ones that can give you that permission to break the rules (ATC certainly cannot do this) for which a charge (i.e. MONEY) is made), and that permission will only be given for a specific date, time, place, pilot and aircraft as a one-off.

 

 Even as a "Display Pilot" I have to abide by the rules, unless I have an exemption to either practice, or if at an actual display (and then a whole load of other rules also come into play)!

 

 

 Regards, 

 Nigel Willson

 Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 --

Looigi

Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

The UK seems like a fun place.



We allegedly used to routinely do buzz and break landings in the L29 here in NZ.  The guys in the tower didn't think we were trying hard enough until they could look down on us as we went past.



There are rules of course, and we followed them.... except they used to make us buzz parallel to the runway, which put the fear of God into a foreign operator in their 777 as they were taxiing along one day when we flew over them at an undisclosed altitude doing 249.5 knots (speed limit is 250 under 10k feet).  For some reason the tower asked us to buzz down the runway centreline after that.

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:54 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

True ... would have to know dew point, temp, press, etc. plus other factors to understand what the root cause of the problem was ....



Typos courtesy of Siri



[quote] On Sep 8, 2017, at 16:42, ggg6(at)att.net wrote:

 

 

 

 Gentlemen. Not to say your inputs on low passes are not valid, but. The real question here was, and is,  what is causing the sputter on pull up. With the engine doing this what guarantees that it will not progress to a much worse condition. Go back to the original question. You have all been distracted from the original reason and question for the post. By saying don't make a low pass, then even a more problem solver would be to recommend park the airplane and just don't fly it again.  Not practical. But thank you all for the low pass legal posts. Gary G. N22YK. LAS

 

 Sent from my iPad

 

> On Sep 8, 2017, at 13:29, Nigel Willson <nigel.willson(at)yakdisplay.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Touch and Go's are fine, because the pilots intention is to land, OR to do a go-around.

> 

> Specifically in SERA (Standardised European Rules of the Air), the ability to descend below 500ft is ONLY allowed when on an APPROACH (to land in accordance with normal aviation practice) at an airfield (which could be an airfield, or a farm strip).

> 

> If you specifically have no intention to land, or do a touch and go, or a GO-AROUND (a climbing manoeuvre following an Approach [to land remember!] in which the pilot elects not to land), then the exemption from the 500ft rule does not apply.

> 

> Specifically, your intention to do none of the above is conceived by you approaching in the wrong configuration, and/or at the wrong speed.

> 

> i.e. If you come in from a dive at aerobatic power doing 150kt when your landing speed is 70kt, you clearly had no intention of landing, and therefore the exemption to fly below 500ft does not apply. You are therefore breaking the Rules of the Air.

> 

> Some people also mis-interpret the "break to land", and treat that as a reason to do really low fly-pasts down the runway.

> 

> Again, specifically, a "break to land" is purely to enable the speed to be bled off in the subsequent climbing high angle of bank turn (i.e lots of drag) onto the downwind leg to get in a position (speed limiting range) to be able to lower the gear. Technically, the "break" along the runway is 500ft lower than the standard published circuit height for the airfield concerned, OR 500ft minimum - whichever is higher.

> 

> If someone wishes to do a "low fly-by", then specific permission (exemption from the rules) has to be obtained in advance from the AUTHORIITY (since they are the ONLY ones that can give you that permission to break the rules (ATC certainly cannot do this) for which a charge (i.e. MONEY) is made), and that permission will only be given for a specific date, time, place, pilot and aircraft as a one-off.

> 

> Even as a "Display Pilot" I have to abide by the rules, unless I have an exemption to either practice, or if at an actual display (and then a whole load of other rules also come into play)!

> 

> 

> Regards, 

> Nigel Willson

> Flying Instructor & Examiner | Airshow Organiser | Display Pilot

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> --

Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:56 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

The only time my L-29 did 249.5 knots was downhill!

Ernie



On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 4:52 PM Looigi <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Looigi" <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)>

 

 The UK seems like a fun place.

 

 We allegedly used to routinely do buzz and break landings in the L29 here in NZ.  The guys in the tower didn't think we were trying hard enough until they could look down on us as we went past.

 

 There are rules of course, and we followed them.... except they used to make us buzz parallel to the runway, which put the fear of God into a foreign operator in their 777 as they were taxiing along one day when we flew over them at an undisclosed altitude doing 249.5 knots (speed limit is 250 under 10k feet).  For some reason the tower asked us to buzz down the runway centreline after that.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472662#472662

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

but u looked good!



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



-------- Original message --------

From: Ernest Martinez <erniel29(at)gmail.com> 

Date:2017/09/08  2:54 PM  (GMT-07:00) 

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com 

Cc:  

Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: . Low Pass Engine Sputter 



The only time my L-29 did 249.5 knots was downhill!

Ernie



On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 4:52 PM Looigi <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Looigi" <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)>

 

 The UK seems like a fun place.

 

 We allegedly used to routinely do buzz and break landings in the L29 here in NZ.  The guys in the tower didn't think we were trying hard enough until they could look down on us as we went past.

 

 There are rules of course, and we followed them.... except they used to make us buzz parallel to the runway, which put the fear of God into a foreign operator in their 777 as they were taxiing along one day when we flew over them at an undisclosed altitude doing 249.5 knots (speed limit is 250 under 10k feet).  For some reason the tower asked us to buzz down the runway centreline after that.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472662#472662

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dawg

HawkerPilot2015

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: Re: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

While there is not a requirement for configuration or speed (<250 below 10K or <200kts in certain areas), a low approach FOLLOWS a missed approach (from an instrument approach which means you're configured at some point) or a go-around (following a balked landing or something similar). I would argue these are made from a configured position not coming off the perch...clean..at an airspeed that would be considered abnormal. 



Simply because the controller does NOT specify a speed does not mean you can exceed FAR speed restrictions within the airspace you're operating in. A controller cannot authorize you to violate an FAR. They EXPECT you to follow the FAR's within the limits of any clearance they might issue. If you violate a rule, you will get the violation and the controller will get a training session. 



Coming off the perch or even from a straight in and coming down the runway at 10 feet is not in the spirit of the AIM (which is non-regulatory). 



Also, I would caution those who perform these to reference 91.303 and 91.307. If you come to the end of a runway and aggressively pitch up or out, you could be in violation of 91.303. 91.307 talks about parachutes. 



Finally, 91.13 talks about reckless operation. At the end of the day, if a fed observes your gear up, 20 foot low approach followed by a Thunderbird like pitch out, you will have a hard time explaining how you were operating within the regs. You may find yourself defending your ticket which historically does not favor you. 



Fly safe and fly smart. 



( I LOVE a good LOW approach but I also fully understand that if the wrong person sees it, I may find myself explaining why I did it. Since I depend on my license to keep the lights on in my house, I do not do them anymore.)

bmsim

Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama

Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:49 am Post subject: Re: . Low Pass Engine Sputter

Luckily my airport loves airplanes and pilots, and we get a lot of transient warbirds or airshow birds in and out, as well as a good many radial bipes, etc., and everyone loves to see them, not bitch at them. 



I can say one positive thing these threads have done is change the way I'll make radio calls in case I have to go around in the future.

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