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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
Thanks for any help!
Brandon
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Viperdoc
Joined: 19 Apr 2014
Posts: 484
Location: 08A
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Simple answer, yes. Mark and Dennis can explain this better than me. Start by looking at your P leads. Then the wiring back to you mag switch.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
Thanks for any help!
Brandon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
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hess737(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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What was the CHT?
Richard Hess
C 404-964-4885
| Quote: | On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
Thanks for any help!
Brandon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
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AcroGimp
Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Posts: 45
Location: San Diego, CA USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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| hess737(at)aol.com wrote: | What was the CHT?
Richard Hess
C 404-964-4885
| Quote: | On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim> wrote:
I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
Thanks for any help!
Brandon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
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Ditto Hess, I will not touch prop at CHT 150 and above based on warning from Gennady Elfimov during a spin/acro clinic, it will diesel at 150 - sounds like it did not run but sputtered and I would expect that on a diesel/auto-ignition event.
JK
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Owner/Pilot N6209F 1987 Yak-52
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jackpot
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Posts: 65
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Brandon. You may have a defective mag switch. I had put a brand new switch in my CJ it soon developed a crazy problem with what appeared to be a mag problem. After months and a couple of thousand dollars I had a ohm meter hook up to the mag switch for tracing another problem and just by accident I caught a twitch on the ohm meter. Found the problem I had been chasing for months and many dollars. Replaced the new switch with another. Original problem cured. Put an ohm meter on the contacts on the mag switch ( I think you will have to disconnect to p leads from the mags) and very lightly jiggle the mag switch lever around when leads connected to #1 then # 2 mag terminal on back of switch. And obviously ground ohm meter lead to ground on the mag switch. Keep everyone away from the prop with the p leads disconnected. It could be the problem but at least you will know. It drove me nuts for a long time just changing the switch fixed the problem. It was a sneaky devil. Grrrrrr. Gary. CJ N22YK
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Oct 22, 2017, at 18:58, Roger Kemp <f16viperdoc(at)me.com> wrote:
Simple answer, yes. Mark and Dennis can explain this better than me. Start by looking at your P leads. Then the wiring back to you mag switch.
Doc
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 22, 2017, at 8:44 PM, bmsim <bmsim(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop...then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
>
> This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
>
> My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473782#473782
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:22 am Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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An easy check would be to remove the P lead from each mag and, using an ohm meter, test each P lead to see if it is grounded at the P lead. The ground to the mag comes from the mag switch to the P lead. Have someone in the cockpit (if possible) switch the mag switch on and then off to verify the ground is always there when in the OFF position. When it the "1" position, #2 should be grounded and vice versa. Assuming your airplane is wired normally, position 1 is the left mag (looking forward from the cockpit) and 2 is the right mag. But confirm that when you remove the P leads using the ohm meter.
Dennis
From: Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
--> Yak-List message posted by: Gary Gabbard <ggg6(at)att.net (ggg6(at)att.net)>
Brandon. You may have a defective mag switch. I had put a brand new switch in my CJ it soon developed a crazy problem with what appeared to be a mag problem. After months and a couple of thousand dollars I had a ohm meter hook up to the mag switch for tracing another problem and just by accident I caught a twitch on the ohm meter. Found the problem I had been chasing for months and many dollars. Replaced the new switch with another. Original problem cured. Put an ohm meter on the contacts on the mag switch ( I think you will have to disconnect to p leads from the mags) and very lightly jiggle the mag switch lever around when leads connected to #1 then # 2 mag terminal on back of switch. And obviously ground ohm meter lead to ground on the mag switch. Keep everyone away from the prop with the p leads disconnected. It could be the problem but at least you will know. It drove me nuts for a long time just changing the switch fixed the problem. It was a sneaky devil. Grrrrrr. !
Gary. CJ N22YK
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | Simple answer, yes. Mark and Dennis can explain this better than me. Start by looking at your P leads. Then the wiring back to you mag switch.
|
| Quote: | > I went for a short flight today after fixing a small fuel leak in the left tank. The leak stopped, flight went great, and I taxied over to the hanger for shutdown. Ran up to burn the plugs, pulled power to idle, switched off mags and the engine came to a stop..then turned backwards once. The prop stopped straight up and down so I verified mags off and jumped out to horizontal the prop for tow. I always touch the prop like the mags are hot, and sure enough, when I spun it, she caught some fire and spun a blade. I jumped up in the front, verified mags off, went to the back, mags off, tried to pull through a blade again just to see, same result.
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| Quote: | > This happened only once before, a couple of months ago, same exact scenario. I ran up, shut her down, she caught a lick backwards, I verified mags off, propped her, and she fired anyway.
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| Quote: | > My question is, where should I start looking for the issue with her firing with the mags off??
|
| Quote: | > Thanks for any help!
|
| Quote: | > Read this topic online here:
|
http://forums.matronics.com
http://w -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Thanks everyone for the replies, I'll get to checking.
CHT, I can't be sure of, but I'm relatively certain was about 120. I understand from some off-board emails that high CHTs after a flight can cause firing.
Notable that both times that she caught a spark after shutdown were also the only 2 times she stopped then ran backwards a prop or two.
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heaysr(at)telus.net
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
prop until the CHT is <85 deg C.
Implying that carbon hot spots can trigger combustion if CHT is >85 deg C.
Regards
Royden
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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it die, then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the engine, leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to push it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at vertical, it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not the fuel shut off in the first place?
One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting phase). So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat, or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because it'll be a bit before you could pull her through????
Thanks in advance for any replies.
| heaysr(at)telus.net wrote: | There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
prop until the CHT is <85>85 deg C.
Regards
Royden
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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"Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not the fuel shut off in the first place?"
Although I can only speculate the exact reason, the fuel shut off in the Cessna is through the mixture control and thus, directly at the carburetor. On the Yak and CJ, the fuel shut off is at the fuel strainer from which fuel flows into the fuel pump. It's not a mixture control fuel shut off. ie: we are not starving the carburetor of fuel on the Yak or CJ with the fuel cut off (actually it is a fire control shut off). In the event of fire, when you pull the fuel shut off, you are shutting ALL fuel off from the firewall forward. On your Cessna, you can turn the fuel off with the fuel selector, which in essence would be the same thing.
Dennis
From: bmsim <bmsim(at)hotmail.com>
To: yak-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 2:21 PM
Subject: Yak-List: Re: Mags off, still got fire...
--> Yak-List message posted by: "bmsim" <bmsim(at)hotmail.com (bmsim(at)hotmail.com)>
Yes, I believe this is the consensus as to the reasoning.
My question for the group, and pardon it being an uneducated one, is this - other birds like my Cessna kill the engine by shutting off fuel and letting it die, then switching off the mags. In the Yak, we shut off the mags to kill the engine, leaving fuel in it. This isn't an issue, unless like me you have to push it back into the hanger with the towbar. In cases where the prop stops at vertical, it needs to be shifted out of the way to fit the towbar, but you can't until it cools. My question is, should I kill it with the fire valve to eliminate this issue, or keep killing it with the mag switch?
Since I'm asking, what is the reason the engine is killed with the mags and not the fuel shut off in the first place?
One other question now that I think about it. Her prior owner told me that even when landing to take on fuel, if she sat longer than about 10 minutes he would go ahead and pull her through 12 blades just as a precaution. Wouldn't that be inadvisable (unless engine temps had come down enough during the sitting phase). So I guess either fuel fast with the cowl flaps closed to hold in heat, or open the flaps to let the engine cool, and take your time fueling because it'll be a bit before you could pull her through????
Thanks in advance for any replies.
heaysr(at)telus.net wrote:
| Quote: | There is something in the M14P starting checklist that says don't touch the
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| Quote: | prop until the CHT is 85 deg C.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473841#473841
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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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To fire from compression you have to have enough compression to cause enough heat to cause detonation. That is called a Diesel Engine.
The compression ratio of this engine with the supercharger not blowing, is in the high 6:1 ratio. That is very low for a compression event. Also, you have this issue, and others do not.
Lead/carbon retains heat. It is a prime candidate for causing an engine to do exactly what yours is doing. It provides the high heat source to act like a GLOW PLUG in a diesel. It also happens very easily with these exact engines if they are run at too low an RPM and too cool for too long. I'VE DONE THAT. The lead comes out of a gaseous mixture and deposits on the exhaust valve itself, on the seat, and other places. Please talk to a mechanic.
Another little tidbit is that the engine stopping and then suddenly reversing direction ... as yours is doing ...... can cause the accessory drive shaft to twist. This changes the timing and is a very bad thing. So you don't want your engine doing this. Ever. At all. So you want to stop it from doing that. SOON. If your timing is way off when you check it, you have to consider this may have happened. It is rare because .... most engines don't DO what yours is doing.
Lastly, it is a habit of a lot of folks that read this list to listen to everyone and then pick the answer that they really wanted to hear in the first place. Happens all the time, and I suspect it is human nature, as I've found myself also wishing for the best, when I suspect it is the worst. To that end, FIND A REALLY GOOD M-14P MECHANIC AND ASK HIM! Even if you have to pay for it. I'd recommend Vladimir Yastremski... Russian Master Mechanic etc.
You don't have to agree with something for it to be true. I might be completely wrong, but I am sure of this: Your engine should not be doing that.
Lastly, not pulling your engine through to get oil out of the cylinders, for any reason at all......... is less than bright.
Mark
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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Thank you for the replies Dennis and Mark! I'm keeping on digging in to the issue. One thing I can absolutely agree on is that the engine should never run backwards!
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GeorgeCoy
Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Not to add to confusions, but as I recall, if you use the firewall shut off
and then try to pressurize the system with the primer while the valve is in
the "OFF" position, it will cause the valve to lock in the "OFF" position.
Attempting to move the shutoff lever to the "ON" position will damage the
valve.
George
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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Good to know, thank you Sir. Note, I don't touch the fire valve other than to ensure it is full forward on the checklist, just asked how come. Great responses (and ones that I should have thought of).
PS - My Yak bears a GC tail number. 
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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:19 am Post subject: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Have you ever confirmed the fire shut off actually shuts the fuel off?
I have seen several shut off arms on the firewall misadjusted and would
not shut the fuel off. It's a good idea to check the operation once in
awhilejust for safety sake.
Dennis
A. Dennis Savarese
334-546-8182 (mobile)
www.yak-52.com
Skype - Yakguy1
On 10/25/2017 11:40 AM, bmsim wrote:
| Quote: |
Good to know, thank you Sir. Note, I don't touch the fire valve other than to ensure it is full forward on the checklist, just asked how come. Great responses (and ones that I should have thought of).
PS - My Yak bears a GC tail number.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473860#473860
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bmsim
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Thanks Dennis, I had planned on confirming at conditional. One of my 172's failed this test years back. Had to remove the fuel shut off valve and have it serviced. It lasted a few years and started weeping, so I stuck a used one in. I'll have to say that getting to that little bugger and putting it in or out is a nightmare, in a 172 at least.
Brandon
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woodja51
Joined: 13 May 2015
Posts: 40
Location: MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Mags off, still got fire... |
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Big warning in Nanchang manuals about propping off with high CHT above about 80 or so. Also heard a story of a Yak guy losing a kneecap in Barwon heads Australia moving prop after refuel etc. everyone thought he had left mags on .. but I suspect the high cht / glow plug idea proposed earlier. As for closing firewall shutoff .. also noted in manuals that it can cause back fire etc so not recommended . If you want to test it disconnect fuel line after closing it and see if fuel comes out.. easy ! Prop stopping and engine tryng to go backwards might be several things but mis-timed is most likely I think. If it’s really out , it will run backwards (if you want western prop direction .. !) but I suspect it’s not designed to do so properly! Can anyone quote me for a complete engine overhaul of a CJ6 at all ...? Would need some level of paperwork for airworthiness too. Back yard rebuild not acceptable as yet. Thanks ,
Matt
Mwuillemin(at)mac.com
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Combat Flights Melbourne
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