Matronics Email Lists Forum Index Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
 
 Get Email Distribution Too!Get Email Distribution Too!    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Back up engine instruments

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:32 pm    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.

What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.  
However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate.  And I figure on an oil temp gauge.  And that's it.
Will
(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:57 am    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ


On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote:
Quote:
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?

My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.

However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.

Will

(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)







- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Yes the levil is a flying instrument...

As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma.
EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round gauges....say Rpm, map and oil temp
OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours.   In this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon because of engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd.  This will give me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include in the initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow.  Also change cb for blade fuses and so on.  But I am loath to fix something which is essentially working pretty well......


The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are not compatible.  The rotax sensors are common obviously.   It seems that mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a huge thing to run a tube into the panel.  Likewise the levil will display GRT ems but not dynon which is annoying.  So what you end up with is double sensors and double wiring....
Will

On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
Quote:

William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
   

On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote:
Quote:
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.  
What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
 
My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.  
 
However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate.  And I figure on an oil temp gauge.  And that's it.
 
Will
 
(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)
 
 
 
 




- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:09 am    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
William
that assumes a lot of things don't matter, oil pressure? Fuel
pressure?
Graham

On Thursday, 25 January 2018, 11:32, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:



Yes the levil is a flying instrument...
As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma.

EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round gauges....say Rpm, map and oil temp

OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours.  In this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon because of engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd.  This will give me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include in the initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow. Also change cb for blade fuses and so on. But I am loath to fix something which is essentially working pretty well......
The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are not compatible. The rotax sensors are common obviously. It seems that mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a huge thing to run a tube into the panel. Likewise the levil will display GRT ems but not dynon which is annoying. So what you end up with is double sensors and double wiring.....

Will

On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)> wrote:
Quote:
William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ


On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote:
Quote:
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?

My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.

However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.

Will

(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)








- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:22 am    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Will,
The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that information. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it is another object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work properly as any AHARS.

I won’t get any more into who is better than who.  None of them are bullet proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and look at what has always worked.

Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
My thoughts only:
First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.

2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS.  That’s radio, transponder, ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter.
Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own?

3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.

4. Work with Dynon on a patch.

Been there, done that in the past.

Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acceptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup.

You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I’ve done both. Not fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.

I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not buy an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised the purchase).

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: William Daniell (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Back up engine instruments


Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.


What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?



My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.



However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.



Will



(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Bud thanks
Dang! it was indeed my plan to run two instruments off the same sender.
The issue was the uncommanded reboot on  flight two weekends ago.  The unit performed as normal last weekend when I flew so it is working.    In fact this makes it more difficult because intermittent faults are harder to track down.

Anyway I have sent my diagnostic file to Dynon and am waiting for a response.     I went through the normal trouble shooting with a contact who has the same set and is also a software engineer.   No anomalies found.    And ensured that the software is the same version.
So levil is the back up flight instrument.
The other option is the SkyView assist option.  This would I think permit the EMS to send data to a phone without the pfd...but I need more info.
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744


On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Will,
The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that information.  I do not believe they interface with Dynon.  Of course it is another object to install.  It has to be level and aligned to work properly as any AHARS.
 
I won’t get any more into who is better than who.  None of them are bullet proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and look at what has always worked. 
 
Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
My thoughts only:
First update the Dynon.  Laptop and serial analog plug-in required.  I never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.
 
2.  Disconnect all other items from the EFIS.  That’s radio, transponder, ADS-B,  autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter. 
Does it work as an EFIS alone?  Does the Engine monitor work on its own?
 
3.  Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.
 
4.  Work with Dynon on a patch.
 
Been there, done that in the past.
 
Back up instruments.  Very few all in one engine monitors other than the obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acceptably.  I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust.  Dynon believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion.  (Also a attitude backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup. 
 
You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor.  I’ve done both.  Not fun either way.  Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.
 
I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge.  Do not buy an automotive boost gauge.  These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised the purchase).
 
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: William Daniell (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Back up engine instruments

 
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
 

What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?

 

My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.  

 

However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate.  And I figure on an oil temp gauge.  And that's it.

 

Will

 

(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)

 

 

 

 
 



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Will,

Another idea is a Stratux ADS-B receiver (www.stratux.me). That will give you ADS-B in capability when you get to the US. When fitted with GPS and AHRS, it will give you an attitude indicator and GPS speed & track on a WiFi display (we use iPad). It works also with most EFB. You can build a Stratux for about $150.

Skyview Assist apparently only works with Android devices.

Your really need a fuel flow computer to fly your Europa. Our experience is the shape of the tank and how little fuel we need to fly for 30 or 45 minutes, makes it difficult to use fuel gauges for endurance planning.

What backup engine gauges do you really need? Perhaps just oil pressure indication and MAP for your turbo. We've found the Rotax to be very dependable - the problems we've had have been with the systems connected to it! There are several documented cases where Rotax engines have continued to run with cooling temps way beyond redline. Granted the heads were destroyed, but the engine kept running.

Just another point of view for you to consider.

Jim & Heather

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:27 pm    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Jim
Yes!  Exactly my thoughts.  
I jumped the gun and bought a LEVIL and may yet spring for a BOM which is a  self powered wireless underwing mounted ADSB AoA Adahrs all singing all dancing type device make by levil.
As far as the engine is concerned I need the bare minimum.  I figure if I have an issue close to an airport then Im landing if the PFD goes dark.  Therefore I don't need a full set of engine diagnostics. I need the minimum back up to land safely and possibly get me home.
So yes definitely a MAP gauge because my turbo is manual.    I have space for a 2" MAP and two other 2" or 2.25 instruments.  At the moment I have an RPM which I figure might be redundant because the airmaster should control the rpm.  
Apart from the MAP, what 2 engine health instruments would you choose if you had to choose only two?
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744


On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 10:18 AM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

Will,
​​

Another idea is a Stratux ADS-B receiver (www.stratux.me).  That will give you ADS-B in capability when you get to the US.  When fitted with GPS and AHRS, it will give you an attitude indicator and GPS speed & track on a WiFi display (we use iPad).  It works also with most EFB.  You can build a Stratux for about $150.

Skyview Assist apparently only works with Android devices.

Your really need a fuel flow computer to fly your Europa.  Our experience is the shape of the tank and how little fuel we need to fly for 30 or 45 minutes, makes it difficult to use fuel gauges for endurance planning.

What backup engine gauges do you really need?  Perhaps just oil pressure indication and MAP for your turbo.  We've found the Rotax to be very dependable - the problems we've had have been with the systems connected to it!  There are several documented cases where Rotax engines have continued to run with cooling temps way beyond redline.  Granted the heads were destroyed, but the engine kept running.

Just another point of view for you to consider.

Jim & Heather




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477628#477628






====================================
pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
====================================
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
WIKI -
errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
====================================
b Site -
          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================





- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
h&jeuropa



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Hi Will,

If I were to chose two engine backup instruments, I would think about what is required to keep the engine running. In all cases, fuel and in many cases, electric (for the fuel pump or turbo control on a 914). So I would look for some sort of backup fuel gauge and a volt meter or ammeter to be aware of the state of the battery. If the engine keeps running, and you have an iPad or similar GPS device or charts, you can probably complete your flight and you can certainly get to a nearby airport.

Jim

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Will,
Not to beat a dead horse. But here is a bit of data on what I did for backups:

I installed a Dynon Eng Management System as a backup and made a relay to switch on Brown’s plane, and a complete set of 2 ¼ for 419PL with a second set of sensors.
Relay board details are shown as attachments above.

419PL was interesting as it was analog:
Tach was off of the ignition lead with a simple switch to the Blue Mountain or UMA guage.
Manifold pressure was split off a Tee.
Oil Pressure was off a Tee with two pressure sensors on the Pax footwell.
Oil Temp was off the Rotax oil temp and the other was installed in the return line to the tank.
Cylinder temp just had one on the #2 and the other on the #3 cylinder sensors.
Volts and Amps combined gauge off a separate shunt.
Fuel Pressure was off a Tee.

It took too much room for a complete set of gauges so an enlarged panel was built.
The extra Dynon or EIS with a relay made for panel space but time making the relay.

You have thought about your engine, prop and turbo control.
True, to get you to a safe landing or reboot your cooled off Dynon what do you really need.
Airmaster Prop controls RPM is right.
Manifold Pressure is right as you have a manual turbo and that would be good to have to adjust if climbing and had to return to landing.

If the alternator and battery quit, so does the engine. Surprise! So why get all tensed up.
Oil Pressure and Temperature as well as head temp is nice as the Rotax runs 90 seconds without oil and 30-45 minutes without coolant, best case.

That means to continue a flight, manifold gauge, oil pressure and a temp gauge which switches from oil temp to cylinder temp are a must.

Be Patient! To keep it simple, fix the reboot problem and press on is what I will do from now on if an Engine Management System is lost. If confronted with its failure: I will use the prop and known throttle position. (I have a stop at 100% built into my throttle so I know what max continuous throttle position is.) If the power is out completely, the prop freezes, fly known pitch settings outside, listen to the engine, set the throttle at known positions, land as soon as conditions permit. Then fix it.

Sorry to say there are no right answers. The problem with the reboot is probably simple. The iLevil is great when combined with an App on your phone or iPad for backup nav, attitude, and if you have a GRT EIS, engine monitor info is available with a backup battery, so you have engine instrumentation as well in the event of panel power failure. If on such a backup power only emergency, one should still land as soon as possible rather than press on.

Regards,
Bud Yerly



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 10:26 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Back up engine instruments


Will,
The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that information. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it is another object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work properly as any AHARS.

I won’t get any more into who is better than who.  None of them are bullet proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and look at what has always worked.

Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
My thoughts only:
First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.

2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS.  That’s radio, transponder, ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter.
Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own?

3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.

4. Work with Dynon on a patch.

Been there, done that in the past.

Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acceptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup.

You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I’ve done both. Not fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.

I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not buy an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised the purchase).

Best Regards,
Bud Yerly



Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: William Daniell (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Back up engine instruments


Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.


What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?



My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.



However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.



Will



(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)

- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List


NTE_Relay_Input_Hookup.bmp
 Description:
 Filesize:  767.51 KB
 Viewed:  5911 Time(s)

NTE_Relay_Input_Hookup.bmp
NTE_Relay_Output_via_DPDT_to_EFIS.bmp
 Description:
 Filesize:  543.37 KB
 Viewed:  5911 Time(s)

NTE_Relay_Output_via_DPDT_to_EFIS.bmp
NTE_Relay_Hookup.bmp
 Description:
 Filesize:  776.73 KB
 Viewed:  5911 Time(s)

NTE_Relay_Hookup.bmp
R40_DPDT_Relay.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  R40_DPDT_Relay.pdf
 Filesize:  747.86 KB
 Downloaded:  307 Time(s)
Back to top
wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject: Back up engine instruments Reply with quote
Dear Bud thanks very much as usual,
I have joined the Dynon forum and apparently reboot in flight is rare but not unheard of.  And this applies to most of the computer based PFD systems.  So priority No1 is flight instruments and I think the Levil is a reasonable solution as I already have Android devices and naviator.
Re engine back up.   I am going to follow your advice with some modifications.
  • I already have RPM back up which I will I think retain.
  • Oil Pressure:  I have discovered since I started the discussion that the standard practice here for oil pressure back up is to switch between Dynon and the back up with an on-off-on switch.  I am assuming that this is what your relay does in a much more sophisticated way.
  • Electrical power:  I have an Alternator warning light which I think will serve as a warning for electrical issues.  Is that correct?
  • Fuel pressure gauge I think is not so critical because I am not 100% electrical dependent - I have a mechanical pump as well as the electric pump.  So I figure if my entire electrical system/electrical pumps and the mech pump all go out Im having a really bad day.
  • I definitely need the MAP because of over-boost and because the mech pump will only hold 28" MAP.
Many thanks for everyone's input.  Ultimately at least on this side of the Atlantic it is up to each individual pilot to assess what he feels comfortable with.
I am also conscious that HJ460 is 920lbs without fuel + 100lbs of fuel + 200 lbs of driver.  I will need an aux tank if I decide to go Aruba Dom Rep....
Thank again to all
Will
William Daniell

LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744


On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:04 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
Quote:

Will,
Not to beat a dead horse.   But here is a bit of data on what I did for backups:
 
I installed a Dynon Eng Management System as a backup and made a relay to switch on Brown’s plane, and a complete set of 2 ¼ for 419PL with a second set of sensors. 
Relay board details are shown as attachments above.
 
419PL was interesting as it was analog:
Tach was off of the ignition lead with a simple switch to the Blue Mountain or UMA guage.
Manifold pressure was split off a Tee.
Oil Pressure was off a Tee with two pressure sensors on the Pax footwell.
Oil Temp was off the Rotax oil temp and the other was installed in the return line to the tank.
Cylinder temp just had one on the #2 and the other on the #3 cylinder sensors.
Volts and Amps combined gauge off a separate shunt.
Fuel Pressure was off a Tee.
 
It took too much room for a complete set of gauges so an enlarged panel was built.
The extra Dynon or EIS with a relay made for panel space but time making the relay.
 
You have thought about your engine, prop and turbo control.
True, to get you to a safe landing or reboot your cooled off Dynon what do you really need.
Airmaster Prop controls RPM is right.
Manifold Pressure is right as you have a manual turbo and that would be good to have to adjust if climbing and had to return to landing.
 
If the alternator and battery quit, so does the engine.  Surprise!  So why get all tensed up.
Oil Pressure and Temperature as well as head temp is nice as the Rotax runs 90 seconds without oil and 30-45 minutes without coolant, best case.
 
That means to continue a flight, manifold gauge, oil pressure and a temp gauge which switches from oil temp to cylinder temp are a must.
 
Be Patient!  To keep it simple, fix the reboot problem and press on is what I will do from now on if an Engine Management System is lost.  If confronted with its failure:  I will use the prop and known throttle position.  (I have a stop at 100% built into my throttle so I know what max continuous throttle position is.)  If the power is out completely, the prop freezes, fly known pitch settings outside, listen to the engine, set the throttle at known positions, land as soon as conditions permit.  Then fix it.
 
Sorry to say there are no right answers.  The problem with the reboot is probably simple.  The iLevil is great when combined with an App on your phone or iPad for backup nav, attitude, and if you have a GRT EIS, engine monitor info is available with a backup battery, so you have engine instrumentation as well in the event of panel power failure.  If on such a backup power only emergency, one should still land as soon as possible rather than press on.
 
Regards,
Bud Yerly
 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 10:26 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Back up engine instruments

 
Will,
The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that information.  I do not believe they interface with Dynon.  Of course it is another object to install.  It has to be level and aligned to work properly as any AHARS.
 
I won’t get any more into who is better than who.  None of them are bullet proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and look at what has always worked. 
 
Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
My thoughts only:
First update the Dynon.  Laptop and serial analog plug-in required.  I never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.
 
2.  Disconnect all other items from the EFIS.  That’s radio, transponder, ADS-B,  autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter. 
Does it work as an EFIS alone?  Does the Engine monitor work on its own?
 
3.  Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.
 
4.  Work with Dynon on a patch.
 
Been there, done that in the past.
 
Back up instruments.  Very few all in one engine monitors other than the obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acceptably.  I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust.  Dynon believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion.  (Also a attitude backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup. 
 
You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor.  I’ve done both.  Not fun either way.  Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.
 
I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge.  Do not buy an automotive boost gauge.  These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised the purchase).
 
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
 
 
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: William Daniell (wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com)
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Back up engine instruments

 
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
 

What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?

 

My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm.  

 

However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate.  And I figure on an oil temp gauge.  And that's it.

 

Will

 

(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)

 

 

 

 
 
 



- The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum -
 

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group