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Oil - where can it go?

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apatton2

Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 27

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:42 am Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

Hi All,

Having ~15h time in my 2nd Yak-50 right now, I am moving away from the "that's just how the airplanes are" perspective I had during my first 200h hours in the old airplane and trying to develop a more generalized understanding of M14 engines.



Right now I am using what is, to me, a lot of oil - just shy of 2L/h. This is during some pretty hard (but almost all positive) G maneuvering at 82%/full throttle.



The engine runs smoothly and well, with the CHT (this airplane is severely stock) at 190degC during acro (it cools rapidly in level flight).



Compressions are good as well, and I have been through some of the oil system tubes and located/fixed some connections that were leaking a relative lot of oil. Now, when you remove the cowl after several hours of hard flying, there is oil on the firewall... but not all that much (certainly not 2L worth). And I don't see oil on the belly, either.



So where can it go? If the cyl compression is good, and the oil system is in decent shape, the only other place that I know of is through the supercharger... and that I have very little experience with.



But in general I'm trying to understand where to focus next. While oil is relatively inexpensive, carrying 4 extra qt everywhere is a PITA.



Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks very much

Andrew

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_________________
Andrew Patton
Yak-50
San Francisco, CA

Looigi

Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 80
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Oil - where can it go?

Hi Andrew,



You have made me feel a lot better about the 1.5l/h oil consumption on our Yak-52.  



I have also fixed the odd oil leak and poked and prodded the engine, but the seemingly high oil consumption is still there.  I have come to the conclusion that 'it is what it is' and as long as the consumption rate doesn't change I am going to live with it.



Chris

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jbsoar(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

Oil, where does it go?

Fellow Yak operators:  Oil consumption has a great deal to do with what one is doing with the airplane.  When one does aerobatics, oil gets vented.  We cannot measure this until after we land, and get the airplane into the same position/condition as when the oil was checked prior to the flight.

Some considerations:  Was the airplane level when the oil was checked?  The dipstick was inserted the same way each time?  Was the dipstick removed, wiped off, and then reinserted?  However this is done, accuracy depends on doing it consistently.  Also, how much oil dripped out of the exhaust manifolds?  How much drained out of the intake?  How much is left in the sump?  The weeping of the occasional seal or gasket won't generally cause a measurable amount of oil consumption.  It takes very little oil to really make a mess of a firewall or the belly of an airplane.  

On a recent cross-country flight, with four landings, I burned ZERO measurable amount of oil.  None.  Not a drop, in probably 7 hours of flying time. 



Aerobatic flight generally requires the occasional quart of oil to be added between changes.  This engine is quite dry.  I've flown Lycoming and Continental engines that "consumed" more, burned or vented...

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 1:33 PM, Looigi <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Looigi" <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Andrew,

 

 You have made me feel a lot better about the 1.5l/h oil consumption on our Yak-52.

 

 I have also fixed the odd oil leak and poked and prodded the engine, but the seemingly high oil consumption is still there.  I have come to the conclusion that 'it is what it is' and as long as the consumption rate doesn't change I am going to live with it.

 

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478049#478049

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ernie

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 513

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:31 pm Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

Somebody added oil when you werent looking..



On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:24 PM, John B <jbsoar(at)gmail.com (jbsoar(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Oil, where does it go?

Fellow Yak operators:  Oil consumption has a great deal to do with what one is doing with the airplane.  When one does aerobatics, oil gets vented.  We cannot measure this until after we land, and get the airplane into the same position/condition as when the oil was checked prior to the flight.

Some considerations:  Was the airplane level when the oil was checked?  The dipstick was inserted the same way each time?  Was the dipstick removed, wiped off, and then reinserted?  However this is done, accuracy depends on doing it consistently.  Also, how much oil dripped out of the exhaust manifolds?  How much drained out of the intake?  How much is left in the sump?  The weeping of the occasional seal or gasket won't generally cause a measurable amount of oil consumption.  It takes very little oil to really make a mess of a firewall or the belly of an airplane.  

On a recent cross-country flight, with four landings, I burned ZERO measurable amount of oil.  None.  Not a drop, in probably 7 hours of flying time. 



Aerobatic flight generally requires the occasional quart of oil to be added between changes.  This engine is quite dry.  I've flown Lycoming and Continental engines that "consumed" more, burned or vented...

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 1:33 PM, Looigi <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "Looigi" <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hi Andrew,

 

 You have made me feel a lot better about the 1.5l/h oil consumption on our Yak-52.

 

 I have also fixed the odd oil leak and poked and prodded the engine, but the seemingly high oil consumption is still there.  I have come to the conclusion that 'it is what it is' and as long as the consumption rate doesn't change I am going to live with it.

 

 Chris

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478049#478049

 

 

 

 

 

 

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wlannon(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

All valid considerations and, without a doubt, accuracy depends on  consistency.

 You did mention “how much is left in the sump” but not your scavenge run  (time & RPM) prior to shut down nor the oil temp at time of  measurement.

 If you measure cold oil before start and hot oil after flight you might  even “manufacture” some oil with a real tight engine.

  

 Cheers;

 Walt

    

  From: John B (jbsoar(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:24 PM

 To: Yak-List Digest Server (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: Oil - where can it go?

  



  Oil, where does it go?    

 Fellow Yak operators:  Oil consumption has a great deal to do with  what one is doing with the airplane.  When one does aerobatics, oil gets  vented.  We cannot measure this until after we land, and get the airplane  into the same position/condition as when the oil was checked prior to the  flight.

  

 Some considerations:  Was the airplane level when the oil was  checked?  The dipstick was inserted the same way each time?  Was the  dipstick removed, wiped off, and then reinserted?  However this is done,  accuracy depends on doing it consistently.  Also, how much oil dripped out  of the exhaust manifolds?  How much drained out of the intake?  How  much is left in the sump?  The weeping of the occasional seal or gasket  won't generally cause a measurable amount of oil consumption.  It takes  very little oil to really make a mess of a firewall or the belly of an  airplane.  

  

 On a recent cross-country flight, with four landings, I burned ZERO  measurable amount of oil.  None.  Not a drop, in probably 7 hours of  flying time. 



 Aerobatic flight generally requires the occasional quart of oil to be added  between changes.  This engine is quite dry.  I've flown Lycoming and  Continental engines that "consumed" more, burned or vented...

  

  



   

 On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 1:33 PM, Looigi <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Looigi" <cdoburton(at)gmail.com (cdoburton(at)gmail.com)>



Hi    Andrew,



You have made me feel a lot better about the 1.5l/h oil    consumption on our Yak-52.



I have also fixed the odd oil leak and poked    and prodded the engine, but the seemingly high oil consumption is still    there.  I have come to the conclusion that 'it is what it is' and as long    as the consumption rate doesn't change I am going to live with    it.



Chris





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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:33 am Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

The Russian manuals actually permit 3 L per hour of oil consumption - which

I consider to be dramatically excessive. Half L per hour is extremely good;

three quarters good; 1 L acceptable, and beyond that the engine is probably

worn or leaking. But still serviceable.



I see that another pilot is claiming zero oil consumption in seven hours of

flight - after over 30 years on these radials, I find that difficult to

believe!



Then, few people actually measure oil level and therefore consumption

correctly. There is only one correct Way to do this, which is to start; warm

the engine very thoroughly - probably 20 minutes - then properly scavenge

excess oil from the engine into the oil tank. This means running at least

60% for at least 15 seconds; then measure the oil. Then fly for one hour,

but absolutely straight and level and no aerobatics; land and repeat the oil

scavenging and then check the oil level.



Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax: +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com



--

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Ttail

Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 120

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - where can it go?

I now have a manual Sump drain kit installed (and Oil cutoff valve) that I use in between flights. Regardless of the scavenge run I see around 1.75l in sump drain container overnight. Just how much is "not" scavenged surprised me.

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MichaelM

Joined: 19 Feb 2018
Posts: 1

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - where can it go?

Speaking of "where can it go," the max listed capacity for the M14 tank is 16L, but many times I've been told "but don't ever fill it above 12 or 13, it will just blow out anyway." Is that true, or only during aerobatics, or only during high power flight, or what? It would be nice to be able to pump it up to 16L before a long cross country and not have to cart around a case of oil on the back shelf, adding one or two at each stop.

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jbsoar(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: Oil - where can it go?

The oil seems to be vented during aerobatic flight.  There was no "measurable" oil consumption during a recent 7 hour ferry flight with four landings.Because our aircraft have remote oil tanks, it doesn't matter how much is in the tank, as long as there is "enough."  Of course, the lower the quantity of oil, the more that quantity of oil will circulate.  That oil will get dirtier quicker than a larger quantity of oil.  If one looks at wet sump engine, such as a Continental A-65, the minimum oil quantity of oil is startlingly low.  If memory serves, that sump holds 4 or 5 quarts of of oil, but the engine can be run safely with as little as 1.2 quarts.  (Someone look this up, please.  It's been many years...)  

How does this effect oil temperature?  It seems that a larger quantity of oil would warm up slower, and cool down slower.  On that recent ferry flight, I had several quarts of oil stuffed in every nook and cranny in the cockpit, if needed.  It seems safe to fill the tank to 16 L, and go on a long cross-county flight.  One can likely buy a quart of oil at an FBO, if they need one.

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 4:26 PM, MichaelM <michaelmclaughlin(at)gmail.com (michaelmclaughlin(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "MichaelM" <michaelmclaughlin(at)gmail.com (michaelmclaughlin(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Speaking of "where can it go," the max listed capacity for the M14 tank is 16L, but many times I've been told "but don't ever fill it above 12 or 13, it will just blow out anyway." Is that true, or only during aerobatics, or only during high power flight, or what? It would be nice to be able to pump it up to 16L before a long cross country and not have to cart around a case of oil on the back shelf, adding one or two at each stop.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478116#478116

 

 

 

 

 

 

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