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budyerly(at)msn.com
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro |
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From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 2:59 PM
To: Mike Gregory (m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com)
Subject: RE: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike and all.
Here I go again, keep in mind I have a love hate relationship with every component in an aircraft.
One piece of advise, be an amp zealot!
40-60 amp alternators are necessary on some pieces of equipment. Like a motor home, yacht, or like my neighbor kids car with incandescent lighting (he likes the warm glow I guess) power everything, and his wonderful stereo he shares with everyone around him. Just kidding.
The Europa is a light simple aircraft. Today our aircraft for IFR really push the 18 max amp Ducati VR beyond its capacity.
The main, and frankly the only hi amp item needed today, is the pitot heat in a solid state IFR aircraft. That is where a 40 amp alternator, which is belt driven, is necessary; because in the pattern, doing 80 knots at 4000 RPM the Ducati is barely keeping pace on a VFR day with normal radios/transponder and the like (Rotax says it supplies 13.5 volts at 18 amps at 4000 but don’t count on it). If you have a 914, each pump is 2-3 amps and the TCU and servo another .2. Add Pitot heat, electric gyros, autopilot, 5 watt radios, old 2.5 amp transponder, encoder, incandescent 100,000 candle power landing light, and incandescent Whelen Strobes, you will need 30 amps and a robust battery just to drive all that. Of course you will need the 60 amp if you add your heated seat cushions, electric snow suit, dual iPads and stereo system. But you will be “stylin”.
Problems with the Belt Driven Alternator is you must change the cowl, add a spacer to the prop drive lugs for the pulley flange sometimes, deal with noise from the alternator (magnetic and electronic from the alternator) and of course the weight. If it is a low power belt drive alternator, you may need to split the main bus into two and add a bus tie in the event of loss of one alternator. Wiring designs for switching alternators/bus ties and system degradation (if the main or aux alternator is lost), is necessary. Been there, done that! Time consuming, but necessary documentation, and it works.
Pitot Heat: I’ve installed Angus, Dynon, old Piper units and they all draw 6-10 amps when on at full blast. Nice thing about the new ones is they have thermostats so unless cruising in severe icing, they only draw a couple amps. But that initial turn on and cruising in sub freezing temps will get you back up to the that max of 6-10 amps. No one has figured out anti-icing for the wings and prop to date. I’ve commented on the backup static source recently.
Consider this:
Led Lighting (high power landing light is 2.5 amps, and wing lighting is .6 amps with continuous strobe)
Interior lighting of LED post lights (I know they are not sexy) is negligible).
Modern solid state radios pull .5 amps. Trig is one, and they do not require cooling air.
(Cooling fans draw a max of .5 amps and if a unit needs one, it draws too much power.
Mode S transponders today are all digital and pull .5 amps max.
Gyros are a thing of the past. A solid state EFIS is all that is necessary. It pulls only about .6 amps if you are a frequent button pusher. Leave it alone and it drops to .1 amp.
Engine monitors are built into the EFIS systems and pull next to zero.
Autopilots draw a max of 2 when working hard and .5 at cruise.
Ipads tend to draw about 2 amps when working as a nav device. More if needing a charge and working hard.
Aux boost pumps adds 2-3 amps when under load, so figure 4 amps at 4000 RPM in a 914 on downwind with both on.
Trim and flaps are momentary draws so I’m not counting them.
Batteries are now stronger and longer lasting, and even I am warming up to the Li ion batteries. Heck, put in two.
At night in the weather, with idle RPM you are on the battery only normally so if the battery was down a bit and on landing roll out you key your old Garmin radio, expect the incandescent lights and radio to cut out, leaving you dark and quiet on the runway.
So the amp draw is in the range of 9-10 amps until you turn on the pitot heat and landing lights then you are at 18-20. If you want a fully IFR Europa to meet the required equipment for IFR, you must have a belt driven alternator at this time to provide the necessary amps at lower RPMs. Until the extra alternator coil gets approved on the back of the Rotax, you are stuck with the mods I discussed above.
In Europe, you do have the new guys: FLYGAS who have reportedly added a second set of coils and rotors to the back of the Rotax 9 series. The prototype was clean and neat looking last time I looked.
Circuit design is fairly easy for dual alternators, even if you split the buses. You can review Bob Knuckles and go from there. I haven’t put customer circuits I design on my website but I’m available to send copies.
In the use of Vertical Power and other so called easy plug and play wiring units, I am mixed on them. To save panel space or extensive panel mods to enlarge the panel face for circuit breaker panels, I have used the very inexpensive and reliable circuit board made by EXP. I do not use their face plate. I install my own switches and relays where I want them. I also mount it securely, fab a cover panel (I don’t need some loose nut falling into a circuit board) and apply cooling air as PTCs do warm up which affects their tripping point. I do not like the EXP annunciator panel but it works (except for amps) and it has a built in surge protector. Weight is .6 pounds with my cover and D sub plugs.
I spoke to Vertical Power at Sebring last month. The unit weighs in at 2 pounds, and their power hook up box is 1.6 pounds (from memory) The boxes are large (so where to put them is a problem) and their supplied wire bundles with D subs are heavy as sin and use straight connectors so the wire bundle bending as well as box placement must be planned very carefully. A sport aircraft is already 5 pounds of crap in a 3 pound bag so I just don’t have room for these huge boxes.
Remember, if a system is automatic, you have lost control. As with power panels, don’t try to isolate one circuit to test during the build without planning your plug circuits to allow a bypass of all the rest of the circuits. If all wired direct, it is all hooked up or nothing.
I prefer to teach my clients how to wire, the tools and wire necessary to do the job right. Try to make everything serviceable inside the panel and the panel a breeze to remove (of course nobody but me wants to do it as it is plugs and screws.) I have also found, if it is convenient and automatic it is also expensive, heavy, and seems to always require extra support. Sometimes dumb simple systems, well documented, are the least troublesome. The client understands and knows his panel, and in the event of a problem, is more comfortable with troubleshooting. Remember, if you plan it to be serviceable, it will never fail.
Just my opinion.
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
[img]cid:image002.png(at)01D3B89C.7AF19CE0[/img]
From: Mike Gregory <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 5:40:15 AM
To: europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com; davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
Cc: 'Bud Yerly'
Subject: RE: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
David,
Yes of course you may pass that on to Alan – I don’t think I’ve said anything libellous about VP, and the points made on the AeroElectric list are open to all who care to subscribe. I believe very much in careful consideration of factors such as reliability and maintainability before installing anything that has not a track record for application to the Europa. While cost/benefit is also a consideration, I would be much more concerned about ease of fixing to get home if anything went wrong when far away from specialist support.
I am copying this to Bud Yerly, and would welcome any comments from him, especially if he has fitted such a packaged system to a Europa.
Best wishes,
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
+441480 451655
+447885 355765
From: 'Peter Jeffers' via europa committee [mailto:europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com]
Sent: 10 March 2018 09:40
To: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
Cc: europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com
Subject: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Hi David ,
I did suggest a while ago that he contact the LAA wrt his proposition rather than receive unverified information from club officials.
Pete
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk [mailto:davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk]
Sent: 10 March 2018 08:48
To: Mike Gregory
Cc: 'Peter Jeffers'
Subject: RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike, Are you happy to pass that on to Alan? Might save him some bother. David
On 2018-03-10 00:32, Mike Gregory wrote: [quote]
Hello David,
I had a discussion with Francis some years ago about the EXP-Bus, which you no doubt are aware was an earlier system providing an integrated solution to electrical control and distribution. We agreed that it was not something we would wish to encourage for permit aircraft, as such a system has the potential to give trouble that would be difficult to diagnose and fix if the software or hardware went wrong.
There was a lot of discussion on the AeroElecric list in 2016, typified by the contributions copied below from Bob Nuckolls and Peter Pengilly, two people whose advice I respect.
I share the summary view expressed by Peter Pengilly at the end of his piece:
"So we have a device of unknown quality passing data to a second device of equally unknown quality to control a function that we really need to work correctly all of the time. That is rather too much trust to put in people I have never met and who are unwilling to describe how they ensure their design goals are achieved in their products.
"However good a VPX is at managing an electrical system, from my perspective this type of function is taking unnecessary risks for very little gain. It is also expensive when a few fuses will carry out the same job."
If someone wants to spend the money, then no doubt they could get LAA approval to install such a system, but even with this newer system I still wouldn't encourage it – and certainly not if the reason for adopting it is that the builder doesn't understand electrics and wants to "simplify" his electrical build.
Best wishes,
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
01480 451655
07885 355765
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) [mailto:davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)]
Sent: 09 March 2018 15:23
To: Mike Gregory
Subject: Fwd: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike, Do you have the time to offer an opinion on this? David
------
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:48 pm Post subject: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro |
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Edge performance now has a 32A crank alternator fwiw.
http://webshop.edgeperformance.no/index.php?id_product=458&controller=product
On Mar 10, 2018, at 6:20 PM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
[quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]-->
From: Bud Yerly (budyerly(at)msn.com)
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 2:59 PM
To: Mike Gregory (m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com)
Subject: RE: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike and all.
Here I go again, keep in mind I have a love hate relationship with every component in an aircraft.
One piece of advise, be an amp zealot!
40-60 amp alternators are necessary on some pieces of equipment. Like a motor home, yacht, or like my neighbor kids car with incandescent lighting (he likes the warm glow I guess) power everything, and his wonderful stereo he shares with everyone around him. Just kidding.
The Europa is a light simple aircraft. Today our aircraft for IFR really push the 18 max amp Ducati VR beyond its capacity.
The main, and frankly the only hi amp item needed today, is the pitot heat in a solid state IFR aircraft. That is where a 40 amp alternator, which is belt driven, is necessary; because in the pattern, doing 80 knots at 4000 RPM the Ducati is barely keeping pace on a VFR day with normal radios/transponder and the like (Rotax says it supplies 13.5 volts at 18 amps at 4000 but don’t count on it). If you have a 914, each pump is 2-3 amps and the TCU and servo another .2. Add Pitot heat, electric gyros, autopilot, 5 watt radios, old 2.5 amp transponder, encoder, incandescent 100,000 candle power landing light, and incandescent Whelen Strobes, you will need 30 amps and a robust battery just to drive all that. Of course you will need the 60 amp if you add your heated seat cushions, electric snow suit, dual iPads and stereo system. But you will be “stylin”.
Problems with the Belt Driven Alternator is you must change the cowl, add a spacer to the prop drive lugs for the pulley flange sometimes, deal with noise from the alternator (magnetic and electronic from the alternator) and of course the weight. If it is a low power belt drive alternator, you may need to split the main bus into two and add a bus tie in the event of loss of one alternator. Wiring designs for switching alternators/bus ties and system degradation (if the main or aux alternator is lost), is necessary. Been there, done that! Time consuming, but necessary documentation, and it works.
Pitot Heat: I’ve installed Angus, Dynon, old Piper units and they all draw 6-10 amps when on at full blast. Nice thing about the new ones is they have thermostats so unless cruising in severe icing, they only draw a couple amps. But that initial turn on and cruising in sub freezing temps will get you back up to the that max of 6-10 amps. No one has figured out anti-icing for the wings and prop to date. I’ve commented on the backup static source recently.
Consider this:
Led Lighting (high power landing light is 2.5 amps, and wing lighting is .6 amps with continuous strobe)
Interior lighting of LED post lights (I know they are not sexy) is negligible).
Modern solid state radios pull .5 amps. Trig is one, and they do not require cooling air.
(Cooling fans draw a max of .5 amps and if a unit needs one, it draws too much power.
Mode S transponders today are all digital and pull .5 amps max.
Gyros are a thing of the past. A solid state EFIS is all that is necessary. It pulls only about .6 amps if you are a frequent button pusher. Leave it alone and it drops to .1 amp.
Engine monitors are built into the EFIS systems and pull next to zero.
Autopilots draw a max of 2 when working hard and .5 at cruise.
Ipads tend to draw about 2 amps when working as a nav device. More if needing a charge and working hard.
Aux boost pumps adds 2-3 amps when under load, so figure 4 amps at 4000 RPM in a 914 on downwind with both on.
Trim and flaps are momentary draws so I’m not counting them.
Batteries are now stronger and longer lasting, and even I am warming up to the Li ion batteries. Heck, put in two.
At night in the weather, with idle RPM you are on the battery only normally so if the battery was down a bit and on landing roll out you key your old Garmin radio, expect the incandescent lights and radio to cut out, leaving you dark and quiet on the runway.
So the amp draw is in the range of 9-10 amps until you turn on the pitot heat and landing lights then you are at 18-20. If you want a fully IFR Europa to meet the required equipment for IFR, you must have a belt driven alternator at this time to provide the necessary amps at lower RPMs. Until the extra alternator coil gets approved on the back of the Rotax, you are stuck with the mods I discussed above.
In Europe, you do have the new guys: FLYGAS who have reportedly added a second set of coils and rotors to the back of the Rotax 9 series. The prototype was clean and neat looking last time I looked.
Circuit design is fairly easy for dual alternators, even if you split the buses. You can review Bob Knuckles and go from there. I haven’t put customer circuits I design on my website but I’m available to send copies.
In the use of Vertical Power and other so called easy plug and play wiring units, I am mixed on them. To save panel space or extensive panel mods to enlarge the panel face for circuit breaker panels, I have used the very inexpensive and reliable circuit board made by EXP. I do not use their face plate. I install my own switches and relays where I want them. I also mount it securely, fab a cover panel (I don’t need some loose nut falling into a circuit board) and apply cooling air as PTCs do warm up which affects their tripping point. I do not like the EXP annunciator panel but it works (except for amps) and it has a built in surge protector. Weight is .6 pounds with my cover and D sub plugs.
I spoke to Vertical Power at Sebring last month. The unit weighs in at 2 pounds, and their power hook up box is 1.6 pounds (from memory) The boxes are large (so where to put them is a problem) and their supplied wire bundles with D subs are heavy as sin and use straight connectors so the wire bundle bending as well as box placement must be planned very carefully. A sport aircraft is already 5 pounds of crap in a 3 pound bag so I just don’t have room for these huge boxes.
Remember, if a system is automatic, you have lost control. As with power panels, don’t try to isolate one circuit to test during the build without planning your plug circuits to allow a bypass of all the rest of the circuits. If all wired direct, it is all hooked up or nothing.
I prefer to teach my clients how to wire, the tools and wire necessary to do the job right. Try to make everything serviceable inside the panel and the panel a breeze to remove (of course nobody but me wants to do it as it is plugs and screws.) I have also found, if it is convenient and automatic it is also expensive, heavy, and seems to always require extra support. Sometimes dumb simple systems, well documented, are the least troublesome. The client understands and knows his panel, and in the event of a problem, is more comfortable with troubleshooting. Remember, if you plan it to be serviceable, it will never fail.
Just my opinion.
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
<BB4E755A5CBB4A02897F8771CFD68B49.png>
From: Mike Gregory <m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com (m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com)>
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 5:40:15 AM
To: europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com (europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com); davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Cc: 'Bud Yerly'
Subject: RE: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
David,
Yes of course you may pass that on to Alan – I don’t think I’ve said anything libellous about VP, and the points made on the AeroElectric list are open to all who care to subscribe. I believe very much in careful consideration of factors such as reliability and maintainability before installing anything that has not a track record for application to the Europa. While cost/benefit is also a consideration, I would be much more concerned about ease of fixing to get home if anything went wrong when far away from specialist support.
I am copying this to Bud Yerly, and would welcome any comments from him, especially if he has fitted such a packaged system to a Europa.
Best wishes,
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
+441480 451655
+447885 355765
From: 'Peter Jeffers' via europa committee [mailto:europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com (europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com)]
Sent: 10 March 2018 09:40
To: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)
Cc: europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com (europa-committee(at)googlegroups.com)
Subject: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Hi David ,
I did suggest a while ago that he contact the LAA wrt his proposition rather than receive unverified information from club officials.
Pete
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) [mailto:davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)]
Sent: 10 March 2018 08:48
To: Mike Gregory
Cc: 'Peter Jeffers'
Subject: RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike, Are you happy to pass that on to Alan? Might save him some bother. David
On 2018-03-10 00:32, Mike Gregory wrote: [quote]
Hello David,
I had a discussion with Francis some years ago about the EXP-Bus, which you no doubt are aware was an earlier system providing an integrated solution to electrical control and distribution. We agreed that it was not something we would wish to encourage for permit aircraft, as such a system has the potential to give trouble that would be difficult to diagnose and fix if the software or hardware went wrong.
There was a lot of discussion on the AeroElecric list in 2016, typified by the contributions copied below from Bob Nuckolls and Peter Pengilly, two people whose advice I respect.
I share the summary view expressed by Peter Pengilly at the end of his piece:
"So we have a device of unknown quality passing data to a second device of equally unknown quality to control a function that we really need to work correctly all of the time. That is rather too much trust to put in people I have never met and who are unwilling to describe how they ensure their design goals are achieved in their products.
"However good a VPX is at managing an electrical system, from my perspective this type of function is taking unnecessary risks for very little gain. It is also expensive when a few fuses will carry out the same job."
If someone wants to spend the money, then no doubt they could get LAA approval to install such a system, but even with this newer system I still wouldn't encourage it – and certainly not if the reason for adopting it is that the builder doesn't understand electrics and wants to "simplify" his electrical build.
Best wishes,
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
01480 451655
07885 355765
From: davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) [mailto:davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk)]
Sent: 09 March 2018 15:23
To: Mike Gregory
Subject: Fwd: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro
Mike, Do you have the time to offer an opinion on this? David
------
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alan_hunter1664
Joined: 05 Oct 2013
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: [europa-committee] RE: Re: Vertical Power VP-X Pro |
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This is why I love this forum, the combined Europa knowledge on here is irreplaceable and I thank everyone for their input.
The reason I would like to go for the VP-X option is because my GEEK head believes it provides a neat and tidy integrated solution and not because I don't understand aircraft wiring, as an ex aircraft avionics technician with a software degree I have a head start over most in this area.
That said my fledgling knowledge on building a Europa is obvious, so the weight additions, cooling and placement is something I need to consider
I'm surprised no one has fitted an alternator to the Europa yet in the UK.
out of the alternator options the highest output looks like the external 40 Amp alternator, for this I need to reduce my current load by about 6 Amps to get under 32 Amps (80% of the total). I can achieve this as some of the values in the VP-X planner are overstated given the values quoted above but will confirm by reference to the equipment documentation. i'll post on here when I have confirmed values.
Thanks again for all the input.
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