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Hang Start

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skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: Hang Start

anyone seen this?  I highly suspect it is the batteries, but.... I did use the EPU.



So.  -7 celcius today in the great white north.  Went out, preflight, nitro, fuel, everything in the green.



Normal start sequence with the little EPU, she starts up and gets to 20% RPM and sits there at 20%.  nothing more, shut down. Again, same result.



got out the big epu (commercial for Falcons/Kingairs etc), same results, the epu kicks out 400 amp, then drops to zero (expect that) and the planes sits at 20%.



Egt's never over 575.



any thoughts?  I am really thinking its batteries in the nose are weak or done (odyssey's that are fairly old)

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

l29delfin(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm Post subject: Hang Start

1. Battery

2. High pressure fuel pump

3. Start box not going into final cycle



On March 31, 2018 17:08:50 "skidmk" <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 anyone seen this?  I highly suspect it is the batteries, but.... I did use 

 the EPU.



 So.  -7 celcius today in the great white north.  Went out, preflight, 

 nitro, fuel, everything in the green.



 Normal start sequence with the little EPU, she starts up and gets to 20% 

 RPM and sits there at 20%.  nothing more, shut down. Again, same result.



 got out the big epu (commercial for Falcons/Kingairs etc), same results, 

 the epu kicks out 400 amp, then drops to zero (expect that) and the planes 

 sits at 20%.



 Egt's never over 575.



 any thoughts?  I am really thinking its batteries in the nose are weak or 

 done (odyssey's that are fairly old)



 --------

 Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 Ottawa, Ontario





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478948#478948

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: Hang Start

Batteries. Question; When you push the start button, tell me exactly what you hear. EXACTLY.

IU should hear the starter engade, (200 amps), then either the starter excellerating to 400 amps OR igniter going ticktick, ticktick, ticktick. NOT tick.  tick.  tick etc. sometimes ignites come before start acceleration sometimes the other way.

If you don't hear all 3 of those, DO NOT PUT THE FUEL TO IT.

New batteries or 24+ volt EPU.



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



-------- Original message --------

From: skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> 

Date:2018/03/31  16:06  (GMT-07:00) 

To: l29-list(at)matronics.com 

Cc:  

Subject: L29-List: Hang Start

_________________
Dawg

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:08 pm Post subject: Hang Start

OR a starter box, igniter box, or ignitor plugs.



HUNG START.



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.



-------- Original message --------

From: skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> 

Date:2018/03/31  16:06  (GMT-07:00) 

To: l29-list(at)matronics.com 

Cc:  

Subject: L29-List: Hang Start

_________________
Dawg

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Hang Start

ok.  



we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.



Exactly what I hear.   the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick.  The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.



the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced.  We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.



Should we replace ignitors before start box?  Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works?  I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?



We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.  The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?



thanks for the replies.

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: Hang Start

The ignitor box controls the start sequence so I donâ€™t think it is the box.

Ticktick = both ignitorsâ€¦â€¦â€¦..Tick  tick is one plug.



Have you changed fuel filters lately? Sometimes if you donâ€™t bleed the air out after filter change it wonâ€™t start.



I like the idea of first changing the plugs with the other engine. When you pull the plug see if it is sparking.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 ok.  

 

 we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

 

 Exactly what I hear.   the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick.  The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

 

 the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced.  We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

 

 Should we replace ignitors before start box?  Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works?  I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

 

 We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.  The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

 

 thanks for the replies.

 

 --------

 Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 Ottawa, Ontario

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142

_________________
Dawg

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:25 pm Post subject: Hang Start

Does it do the same thing on ships batteries?

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 ok.  

 

 we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

 

 Exactly what I hear.   the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick.  The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

 

 the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced.  We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

 

 Should we replace ignitors before start box?  Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works?  I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

 

 We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.  The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

 

 thanks for the replies.

 

 --------

 Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 Ottawa, Ontario

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142

_________________
Dawg

delfin29(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:46 am Post subject: Hang Start

Try first to change the plugs.

Best regards,

Jean



 	  Quote: 	
		   Le 7 avr. 2018 Ã  00:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> a Ã©crit :

 

 

 

 ok.  

 

 we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

 

 Exactly what I hear.   the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick... not ticktick ticktick.  The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop off to 550 and stay there.

 

 the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should be replaced.  We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

 

 Should we replace ignitors before start box?  Is there anything I can do to start box in terms of checking it works?  I know its mechanical, so could lubricate be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

 

 We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.  The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

 

 thanks for the replies.

 

 --------

 Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 Ottawa, Ontario

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479142#479142

N777ZE

Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 32

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Re: Hang Start

Iâ€™ve got igniters and a ignition box if needed. Shoot me an offer/pm

speedy11

Joined: 29 Jun 2015
Posts: 62
Location: Port Orange, FL

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Hang Start

We discovered ours gave the same indications as your when starting on EPU, but got a normal start on ship's battery. Stan

   	  Quote: 	
		  Time: 04:25:49 PM PST US

 Subject: Re: Re: Hang Start

 From: William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)>

 Does it do the same thing on ships batteries?

 > On Apr 6, 2018, at 17:07, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 > 

 > 

 > ok.  

 > 

 > we replaced our batteries today, start with EPU same results.

 > 

 > Exactly what I hear.   the starter goes (200 amp), then the tick tick tick...

 not ticktick ticktick.  The the 400 amp goes... egts' climb to 600, then drop

 off to 550 and stay there.

 > 

 > the mechanic last year did say the ignitors were on their last leg and should

 be replaced.  We are sourcing them, but have had no luck so far.

 > 

 > Should we replace ignitors before start box?  Is there anything I can do to start

 box in terms of checking it works?  I know its mechanical, so could lubricate

 be sprayed on some of the gears or valves?

 > 

 > We'd prefer not to have to buy a ton of parts to figure out it was the ignitors.

 The tail is off our 2nd ship, I may swap the ignitors and see?

 > 

 > thanks for the replies.

 > 

 > --------

 > Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 > Ottawa, Ontario

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:38 am Post subject: Re: Hang Start

Update:



first thanks to all reponses, love this little community



EPU connected: 

 Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,

 we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),

 EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.



We then shut her all down.  Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)



I'm thinking start control box now.

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: Hang Start

Not trying to be condescending, just throwing things out there.



The start control box controls the start sequence. So if it is doing all 3 steps, what could the box not be doing? After 19 seconds the sequence is stopped by the start box. (4th step)



The ignitors work. Otherwise there would be no light off. If only one ignites, it would result in a HOT start.



It sounds like fuel flow. If the engine starts, EGT rises, RPM increases, it can only be fuel. (It could be air flow if it were an air starter. (Or the intake/exhaust covers where still installed) Just Kidding!



As I mentioned before, if the fuel filter was changed, did you bleed the fuel line?



Is the â€œFire Cockâ€ open completely?



During start, do you push the fuel shut off full forward?



When it is at 20%, have you tried pushing the throttle up a little?



Has this airplane flown before or is this a new project?

Bill

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 9, 2018, at 06:38, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Update:

 

 first thanks to all reponses, love this little community

 

 EPU connected: 

 Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,

 we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),

 EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.

 

 We then shut her all down.  Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)

 

 I'm thinking start control box now.

 

 --------

 Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

 Ottawa, Ontario

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479190#479190

_________________
Dawg

cmoersch3(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:12 am Post subject: Hang Start

Fuel nozzle issue or main fuel pump pressure?  Also spitballing. 



ChristianSent from my iPhone

On Apr 9, 2018, at 08:22, William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> L29-List message posted by: William Geipel <l129bs(at)gmail.com (l129bs(at)gmail.com)>



Not trying to be condescending, just throwing things out there.



The start control box controls the start sequence. So if it is doing all 3 steps, what could the box not be doing? After 19 seconds the sequence is stopped by the start box. (4th step)



The ignitors work. Otherwise there would be no light off. If only one ignites, it would result in a HOT start.



It sounds like fuel flow. If the engine starts, EGT rises, RPM increases, it can only be fuel. (It could be air flow if it were an air starter. (Or the intake/exhaust covers where still installed) Just Kidding!



As I mentioned before, if the fuel filter was changed, did you bleed the fuel line?



Is the â€œFire Cockâ€ open completely?



During start, do you push the fuel shut off full forward?



When it is at 20%, have you tried pushing the throttle up a little?



Has this airplane flown before or is this a new project?

Bill

 	  Quote: 	
		  On Apr 9, 2018, at 06:38, skidmk <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



--> L29-List message posted by: "skidmk" <skidmk(at)gmail.com (skidmk(at)gmail.com)>



Update:



first thanks to all reponses, love this little community



EPU connected: 

Start normal, hear the fuel pump running, hear the clutch engage, the starter spins,

we hear the "secondary boost of amps" and everything spins much quicker, the plugs spark with the same intensity and frequency of our other L29 (so I don't think its the plugs anymore),

EGTS arc up to 600, fall back to 575 then 550 as she stays at 20%.



We then shut her all down.  Went out, and hit air start without fuel etc, so we could hear the sparking, she sparks exactly like the other one we have (she starts fine)



I'm thinking start control box now.



--------

Mike &quot;Skidmk&quot; Bourget

Ottawa, Ontario





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479190#479190



	


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skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Hang Start

Thanks so much Bill.  



1.  Not a project, sheâ€™s been flying quite a bit   

2.  Last week, normal start but stayed at 20% for almost the whole 60 secs, then she â€œkickedâ€ up and went to normal rpm and egts. 

3. A couple of days later weâ€™ve been experiencing thisnissue. 

4. Today swapped igniters.  No joy. 

5. Fuel is leaking after the start attempt.  (In the can the. Out thebtail, we have nice white thick exhaust during the attempt. 

6 stays at 20% with reducing Egtâ€™s, then I shut down. 



All plugs and covers removed.  



Firecock fully open. 

No fuel system service 

Fuel pressure is at 8kgs per cm2 during this sequence.  



Mike

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Hang Start

We will check filter (I doubt it, was serviced <10 hours ago).  Then we'll try and adjust the automatic starting device, as it seems to be a fuel issue.



it is attached to the fuel pump housing, opposite to the pump/ancillary drive shaft.



If any one has one of these laying about please pm me.



thanks



Skid

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

dkloiber

Joined: 22 Mar 2016
Posts: 5

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Hang Start

Sounds like you are not getting a flame over in all combustion chambers. Check your fuel injectors. One might be clogged and you are not getting a perfect spray pattern.

Dawg

Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 355

Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:43 am Post subject: Hang Start

I was thinking of the injectors. But it was flying a short time ago. How about bad fuel?



Bad fuel could cause bad injectors and if there are enough green plants growing itâ€¦â€¦. Pristâ€¦â€¦â€¦..



Hard to believe it will  be the high pressure pump. But u never knowâ€¦â€¦

 	  Quote: 	
		   On Apr 26, 2018, at 05:55, dkloiber <dakl(at)gmx.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Sounds like you are not getting a flame over in all combustion chambers. Check your fuel injectors. One might be clogged and you are not getting a perfect spray pattern.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479565#479565

_________________
Dawg

skidmk

Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Hang Start . ***UPDATE***

many thanks to all who got involved.  As it turns out it was the HP fuel pump afterall.  Switch it out, it immediately when to 31%, a couple clicks on the ground adjust and 35% was obtained.  3 small fuel leaks where the pump associated with the pump replacement.



Hopefully, she'll be back together and flying



this winter though, the injectors are coming out for a good sonic cleaning.



Cheers



Skid

_________________
Mike "Skidmk" Bourget
Ottawa, Ontario

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