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art(at)zemon.name
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Folks,
Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
Thanks,
  -- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
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Eric Page
Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 247
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:15 am Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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I've got (or had; not sure) a string of those in a junk box somewhere that I bought when I was roughly college age & didn't know better, about 45 years ago. I have no desire to locate them again.  Â Similar products I found talk about 'low insertion force', which is kinda bothersome; makes me question whether they will stay tight enough to avoid fretting and corrosion if they remain loose enough to move under vibration. Plus you need a dedicated crimper for those.
Have you tried a regular Faston terminal on your widget? The specs indicate that they fit a typical 1/4" blade terminal. If you can slip a standard Faston in the body of your widget, and you properly support the wire leaving the widget, there's an unmeasurably small risk of one coming off, regardless of the 'latch' feature.Â
FWIW...
Charlie
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:49 am Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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I have seen these referred to as "relay terminals." I think they might be categorized that way on Mouser.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | I've got (or had; not sure) a string of those in a junk box somewhere that I bought when I was roughly college age & didn't know better, about 45 years ago. I have no desire to locate them again. Â Similar products I found talk about 'low insertion force', which is kinda bothersome; makes me question whether they will stay tight enough to avoid fretting and corrosion if they remain loose enough to move under vibration. Plus you need a dedicated crimper for those.
Have you tried a regular Faston terminal on your widget? The specs indicate that they fit a typical 1/4" blade terminal. If you can slip a standard Faston in the body of your widget, and you properly support the wire leaving the widget, there's an unmeasurably small risk of one coming off, regardless of the 'latch' feature.Â
FWIW...
Charlie
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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yellowduckduo(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Yes the tin plated version works well in many nylon shells for relays
and even older ND alternators.
In the past I've purchased as few as 10 at a time from digi-key.
Where feasible I prefer to toss the nylon shell and use PIDG connectors
which I find easier to satisfactorily crimp. especially with the thin
insulation on milspec wire.
Ken
On 09/05/2018 1:47 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | I have seen these referred to as "relay terminals." I think they might
be categorized that way on Mouser.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7(at)gmail.com>> wrote:
I've got (or had; not sure) a string of those in a junk box
somewhere that I bought when I was roughly college age & didn't
know better, about 45 years ago. I have no desire to locate them
again. Similar products I found talk about 'low insertion
force', which is kinda bothersome; makes me question whether they
will stay tight enough to avoid fretting and corrosion if they
remain loose enough to move under vibration. Plus you need a
dedicated crimper for those.
Have you tried a regular Faston terminal on your widget? The specs
indicate that they fit a typical 1/4" blade terminal. If you can
slip a standard Faston in the body of your widget, and you
properly support the wire leaving the widget, there's an
unmeasurably small risk of one coming off, regardless of the
'latch' feature.
FWIW...
Charlie
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name
<mailto:art(at)zemon.name>> wrote:
Folks,
Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals?
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
<http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php>
They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the
bottom to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
Thanks,
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/>
/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for
myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/
|
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs? Â
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. Â
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATEDÂ
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs?
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices.
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATED
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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These particular terminals are used in conjunction with
some form of plastic housing that mates with other
devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the
back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the
back is to retain the terminal in its housing.
| Quote: |
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These terminals do have both wire-grip and insulation
support. On the downside, they are not plated hence
prone to corrosion. If the terminals you're considering
are made by AMP or similar source, they're probably
a suitable alloy.
Terminals of unknown pedigree may be thinner/softer
which risks compromising the gas-tight interface with
the mating tab.
https://goo.gl/8hZ2ep
These are, of course, applied with b-crimp tools
as described.
https://goo.gl/RJuZOf
The AMP PIDG series of fast-on tabs have a
stellar track record for fast-on interconnections.
Further, they install with ratchet handled
tooling. I'd sure stick with PIDG unless there's
a compelling reason to do otherwise.
Bob . . .
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art(at)zemon.name
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:26 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, making installation behind a panel much easier.
I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After I send this email, I will resume my search.
Cheers,
  -- Art Z.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | These particular terminals are used in conjunction with
some form of plastic housing that mates with other
devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the
back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the
back is to retain the terminal in its housing.
| Quote: | | Â |
|
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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art(at)zemon.name
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:33 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Ahhh! Finally found them at Digi-Key:Â https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/42282-1/A113676-ND/293293
Cheers,
  -- Art Z.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
| Quote: | That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, making installation behind a panel much easier.
I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After I send this email, I will resume my search.
Cheers,
  -- Art Z.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | These particular terminals are used in conjunction with
some form of plastic housing that mates with other
devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the
back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the
back is to retain the terminal in its housing.
| Quote: | | Â |
|
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
|
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2018 6:47 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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I found them on Mouser but I think you have to buy a roll of 10,000.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Wed, May 9, 2018, 18:31 Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
| Quote: | That's exactly it. I am using these terminals with AeroRocker switches. There is a plastic housing which holds all six (or eight) connectors, making installation behind a panel much easier.
I tried to buy some at the local electronics emporium (Gateway Electronics) and the owner opined that he could sell a zillion of those if only he could find a supplier. I searched DigiKey and came up empty. After I send this email, I will resume my search.
Cheers,
  -- Art Z.
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | These particular terminals are used in conjunction with
some form of plastic housing that mates with other
devices . . . like the skinny-wire connections on the
back of an alternator. The purpose of the barb on the
back is to retain the terminal in its housing.
| Quote: | | Â |
|
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook. Â
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. Â
Â
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs? Â
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. Â
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATEDÂ
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I’m afraid I don’t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they’re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there’s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs?
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices.
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATED
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
|
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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|
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV? Â
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! Â
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved there.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental idea too?Â
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. Â
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I’m afraid I don’t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they’re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there’s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook. Â
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. Â
Â
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs? Â
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. Â
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATEDÂ
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:16 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV?
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved there.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental idea too?
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I’m afraid I don’t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they’re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there’s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs?
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices.
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATED
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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alec(at)alecmyers.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:18 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Barry
I’d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about how to build a vibration test, somehow
On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV?
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved there.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental idea too?
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I’m afraid I don’t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they’re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there’s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs?
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices.
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATED
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:34 pm Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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|
Maybe an electric toothbrush?
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Barry
I’d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about how to build a vibration test, somehow
On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV? Â
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)! Â
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved there.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental idea too?Â
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use. Â
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I’m afraid I don’t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, if they’re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there’s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someones pocketbook. Â
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it. Â
Â
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec(at)alecmyers.com (alec(at)alecmyers.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
educate me....
why is uninsulated bad?
What’s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com (flyadive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Art:
I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific specs? Â
As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all different practices. Â
But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current practice.
Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
Sharp Edges
UN-INSULATEDÂ
Grip Support of the wire insulation.
No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experimental.
Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
Barry
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art(at)zemon.name (art(at)zemon.name)> wrote:
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:12 am Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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| Quote: |
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. |
B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has
appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens
of thousands of type certificated aircraft
for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP
Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into
the wire harnesses. I too was skeptical of
these 'new kids' on the block that seemed
to dangerously ignore techniques and
lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which
was then already decades old.
[img]cid:.0[/img]
The open-barrel, b-crimp technology now has
a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds
of millions of vehicular and stationary applications
that makes them imminently suited to use on
aircraft. The insulation grip does not have to 'cut
into the wire' . . . as I described in the b-crimp
tool comic book (and illustrated in this image
from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a
'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage to it.
These terminals were designed to be part of a
harness connector wherein two or more wires were
brought into a plastic housing as a female
connector that mated with a switch, relay or
other device.
| Quote: |
|
There are hundreds of millions
of examples of this technology in service all
over the planet . . . including virtually all
cars and trucks on the road today. B-crimp
terminations probably outnumber PIDG style
devices by several orders of magnitude.
[img]cid:.1[/img]
My only concerns for the style illustrated
were for the lack of finish and perhaps an
unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical
properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight
electrical connection.
But if these are found in catalogs from
manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . .
it is likely that those concerns are moot.
If one wished to use these devices as
mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could
consider adding heat-shrink over the whole
terminal . . . which offers more cover than
the PIDG devices.
Bob . . .
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:57 am Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Bob:
You are mixing Apples and Apple Sauce and coming up with Lumpy Apple Sauce.
Those are PINS not Lugs.
The Pins are supported by the connector.
The Lugs are hanging out into the air. No support!
And that is why PIDG type Lugs are preferred!
Barry
On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | Â
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. |
 B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has
 appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens
 of thousands of type certificated aircraft
 for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP
 Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into
 the wire harnesses. I too was skeptical of
 these 'new kids' on the block that seemed
 to dangerously ignore techniques and
 lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which
 was then already decades old.
Â
[img]cid:.0[/img]
   The open-barrel, b-crimp technology now has
   a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds
   of millions of vehicular and stationary applications
   that makes them imminently suited to use on
   aircraft. The insulation grip does not have to 'cut
   into the wire' . . . as I described in the b-crimp
   tool comic book (and illustrated in this image
   from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a
   'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage to it.
Â
   These terminals were designed to be part of a
   harness connector wherein two or more wires were
   brought into a plastic housing as a female
   connector that mated with a switch, relay or
   other device.
| Quote: |
 |
   There are hundreds of millions
   of examples of this technology in service all
   over the planet . . . including virtually all
   cars and trucks on the road today. B-crimp
   terminations probably outnumber PIDG style
   devices by several orders of magnitude.
[img]cid:.1[/img]
   My only concerns for the style illustrated
   were for the lack of finish and perhaps an
   unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical
   properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight
   electrical connection.
Â
   But if these are found in catalogs from
   manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . .
   it is likely that those concerns are moot.
   If one wished to use these devices as
   mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could
   consider adding heat-shrink over the whole
   terminal . . . which offers more cover than
   the PIDG devices.
 Bob . . .
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echristley(at)att.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:31 am Post subject: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
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Why are you installing "lugs" that are hanging out into the air?
Me thinks the problem with lugs is caused by the problem of not following another good practice, which is that the wire should be tied down in some manner to isolate the crimp connection from vibration. You have to analyze the whole system. Not just one connector style.
On Friday, May 11, 2018 9:58 AM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Bob:
You are mixing Apples and Apple Sauce and coming up with Lumpy Apple Sauce.
Those are PINS not Lugs.
The Pins are supported by the connector.
The Lugs are hanging out into the air. No support!
And that is why PIDG type Lugs are preferred!
Barry
On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 9:11 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | | There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire. |
B-crimp termination of wires on airplanes has appeared in the bills-of-materials on tens of thousands of type certificated aircraft for decades. I was at Cessna when the AMP Mate-n-lock products were incorporated into the wire harnesses. I too was skeptical of these 'new kids' on the block that seemed to dangerously ignore techniques and lessons-learned in the PIDG technology which was then already decades old. [img]cid:.0[/img] The open-barrel, b-crimp technology now has a field-service record demonstrated in hundreds of millions of vehicular and stationary applications that makes them imminently suited to use on aircraft. The insulation grip does not have to 'cut into the wire' . . . as I described in the b-crimp tool comic book (and illustrated in this image from Tyco-AMP), the insulation grip should get a 'bear-hug' on the insulation without damage to it. These terminals were designed to be part of a harness connector wherein two or more wires were brought into a plastic housing as a female connector that mated with a switch, relay or other device. | Quote: | | |
There are hundreds of millions of examples of this technology in service all over the planet . . . including virtually all cars and trucks on the road today. B-crimp terminations probably outnumber PIDG style devices by several orders of magnitude. [img]cid:.1[/img] My only concerns for the style illustrated were for the lack of finish and perhaps an unknown pedigree for the material's mechanical properties that go to maintenance of gas-tight electrical connection. But if these are found in catalogs from manufacturers like Tyco-AMP, Molex, etc . . . it is likely that those concerns are moot. If one wished to use these devices as mates to individual fast-on tabs, one could consider adding heat-shrink over the whole terminal . . . which offers more cover than the PIDG devices. Bob . . .
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