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Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

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roughleg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?

One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:

"RED to batteryÂ + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system

"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to batteryÂ +"Â  - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?

If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:16 pm Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

At 04:12 PM 8/23/2018, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?



 One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:

 "RED to batteryÂ + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system

 "YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to batteryÂ +"Â  - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?



 If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the  Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8 	




    I would guess that yellow is a sense lead. Exactly

    WHY they do certain things in their architecture

    is perhaps a down-under state secret.



    I've had some email contact with the factory

    about 10 years ago trying to resolve similar

    questions but I've never been able to talk with

    anyone who really understood the system. All

    I could get out of them is "that's what the

    diagrams have always shown . . . and YOU

    are the only one complaining about them."



    It's been my observation that people who design

    engines should stay out of the electrical system

    business . . . same for Rotax . . . 



 

   Bob . . .

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax, then the Jabiru

regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and voltage sense.

  I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read.  It appears that the yellow control wire connects

to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse.  But that wire is not marked on the diagram.

  If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,

except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.

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_________________
Joe Gores

roughleg(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:30 pm Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

Thanks for that Joe. Now that I have taken a look at Z-16 I like it for a number of reasons. One of them is that the alternator relay is on the alternator (it's called dynamo on the figure) output into the voltage regulator. I had been imagining putting the relay in the regulator's output. I'm guessing that the regulator would be happier with no input than full input and open circuit output. But since we don't know what's inside that thing...



On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 8:42 PM user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 If the Jabiru voltage regulator functions the same as the Ducati regulator used on the Rotax, then the Jabiru

 regulator yellow control wire functions both as a regulator enable and voltage sense.

 Â  I find the Jabiru wiring diagram difficult to read.Â  It appears that the yellow control wire connects

 to the left side of the 60 amp inline fuse.Â  But that wire is not marked on the diagram.

 Â  If it were my plane, I would wire it according to Bob's Z-16,

 except substitute a 30 amp inline fuse in place of the 16awg fuselink.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

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nuckollsr

Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Medicine Lodge, KS

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

I think it almost a certainty that when looking INTO the power output lead of the rectifier/regulator, one sees only a pair of cathodes for two legs of the controlled bridge rectifier. When this lead is connected to the battery with the control lead open, one should see essentially zero current (picoamps of rectifier leakage at most).



So alternator ON/OFF control is best managed in the AC power input leads as depicted in Z-16 and others.

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jimkale(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:06 am Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light sport airplane that has a much simpler electrical system than you are building.  I checked the Jabiru manual and found that they are using a permanent magnet alternator with single phase AC output.  The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times then rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts.  



So the alternator is always producing full power and the rather robust regulator with the fins dissipates the power that the aircraft is not using as heat.  That is why it is so robust with fins on it.  This is a much different situation than an excited 3 phase AC alternator used with a voltage regulator, either internal or external.  The Jabiru I am installing has a 200 watt output which calculates to about 15 amps.  It is a simple system that works great in airplanes with simple electrical systems which only needs power for a radio, intercom, lights, etc.  

It it is connected to more complex airplanes that have primary and secondary busses, etc.  You must end up experimenting to try to determine just how the regulator works, and how you can try to configure it to fit your more complex requirements.  In my opinion you are going out on a limb and risking a failure caused by trying to use a simple system for a more complex requirement.  I have no idea if an external alternator could be fitted to the Jabiru engine or not.  My recommendation is to keep your electrical system very simple, or find a way to install a more powerful alternator with more conventional alternator controls.  



Sent from my iPhone



On Aug 23, 2018, at 4:12 PM, Pat Little <roughleg(at)gmail.com (roughleg(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  We have a Jabiru 3300 on a Zenith STOL CH750 and I'm trying to understand the inner workings of the voltage regulator that Jabiru supplies. I asked on the Jabiru forum but didn't get any useful insight. Does anyone on this list happen to know what goes on inside that unit?

One of my puzzles is: on Jabiru's wiring diagram it show which pins on the regulator's connector go where, and it lists, among others, these two:

"RED to battery + via relay" - presumably this is the output to charge the battery and power the plane's electrical system

"YELLOW voltage control - J160C to main bus, other models to battery +"  - is this a feedback signal from the battery into the regulator's sense circuit? if so, that might explain why not via relay. And why would it connect to a different place in one model of airplane (the J160C is a Jabiru certified plane) than in others?

If anyone cares to look, the diagram I mention is on page 269 of the Jabiru Aircraft Technical Manual JTM001-8

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

I would like to read about the Jabiru 2200 regulator.  Do you have a link to the literature?  Thanks

 	  Quote: 	
		  The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times

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_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:02 pm Post subject: Jabiru 3300 voltage regulator

At 12:43 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I am helping a friend install a Jabiru 2200 on an Excalibur light sport airplane that has a much simpler electrical system than you are building.  I checked the Jabiru manual and found that they are using a permanent magnet alternator with single phase AC output.  The regulator that Jabiru supplied with the engine is the type that puts a full load on the alternator at all times then rectifies the output and regulates it down to 14 volts. 	


   This 'shunt regulation' philosophy for small engine

   PM alternators was indeed popular and practical when

   mini-bike builders wanted to add batteries and headlights

   to their products. Total system energy requirements were on the

   order of 10 watts or less . . . not unlike that produced

   by those little generators we used to put on our bicycles.



   The had to be designed to tolerate continuous short

   circuit loading. I.e. wound with smaller, high resistance

   wire and well heat-sinked to dissipate the energy developed

   when a battery became fully charged and the shunting device,

   usually an SCR, was triggering early in every half cycle of

   the dynamo's output. Simple and sorta worked purddy gud . . .



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   Then came snowmobiles, ski-doos, etc, etc and the batteries

   got bigger, lights more powerful, starters were added, etc.

   etc. But the common vernacular for the ac dynamo on the engine

   was a 'lighting coil'.



   But as the system energy requirements went up, output

   demands from the dynamo and its companion regulator did

   too. A fundamental concern for any solid state power management

   is what to do with and about wasted heat. You can do it

   with a combination of two techniques: (1) reduce the heat

   dissipated in the circuit components and (2) add heat sinking

   which may included fins to dissipate energy into convection

   or forced air.



   (1) is where you start from.



 [img]cid:.1[/img]



   The legacy, gated full wave rectifier shown above is

   typical of most if not ALL rectifier regulators of 20

   or so years ago. Some people have mistakenly called this

   a 'shunt' regulator because of the totem-pole of rectifier-

   SCR strings across the alternator winding. It may LOOK

   like some kind of 'shunt' circuit but in fact, those

   four devices in the bridge are only turned ON in pairs

   and in series connection with the alternator winding.



   The 'transistors' you see above are in fact 4-layer,

   triacs or scrs. They are the major heat dissipating

   devices in the circuit. Some manufacturer's have

   eliminated the 4-layer devices in favor of MOSFET

   transistors which typically have perhaps 5% of the

   dissipation of the SCR.  These modern R/R's run much

   cooler and are more efficient.



   Once you've refined your circuit components, you then

   PACKAGE the thing to manage heat that 20A+ components

   invariably throw off.



   But these are still gated, SERIES, full wave bridge rectifiers.

   Nobody would build a true SHUNT style regulator reminiscent

   of your daddy's moped. It's inefficient, wasteful, difficult

   to manage thermally and best yet . . . completely unnecessary.

   If someone claims to HAVE a shunt style rectifier/regulator,

   ask them to put a snap-on ammeter on one of the alternator

   leads while system loads are minimized and the battery is

   charged. 



   If it's a shunt style regulator, current flowing in that

   loop with minimized alternator loads would be high. I'll

   offer to give $100 to anyone who can send me a SHUNT

   style R/R rated at 10A or more to test on my stand along

   with identification of where it came from and on what

   vehicle it is used.  I'll test here, write a report and

   return the R/R to the owner with or without the $100

   as dictated by test results.



   I'll bet the Jabiru 3300 R/R is no different electronically

   than the Ducatti regulators supplied with Rotax engines all

   these years.

  



 

   Bob . . .

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