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B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

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GlastarMatt

Joined: 13 Sep 2017
Posts: 3

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

Hi Bob, 

 

 I have a new B&C 60 amp alternator and the corresponding LR3C voltage regulator installed in an experimental Glastar.

 

 

 All components are new since I thought they were causing the over voltage problem. The ship has about 1600 hours TT. 

 

 

 Direct to the problem:

 

 

 After I start the engine, the voltage steadily increases until the 5-amp field circuit trips, someplace over 15 volts.

 

 

 Iâ€™ve gone through the Technical Manual for Model No. LR3C-14 and LR3C-28 Linear Regulator troubleshooting guide and the voltage and resistance checks meet standards.

 

 

 Iâ€™ve also spent countless hours with TJ at B and C technical support trying to unravel this mystery. 

 

 

 New parts include:

 BC460-H alternator 

 LR3C-14 voltage regulator 

 Battery master solenoid

 5-amp breaker

 2-amp breaker

 Toggle switch to activate the 5 and 2 amp breakers

 Wire and crimps

 3/8â€ ground braid cable

 

 

 Iâ€™ve isolated the ship electrical system to:

   Sealed lead acid battery 

   LR3C voltage regulator 

   BC460-H 60 amp alternator

   Battery solenoid 

 

 

 Power to energize the 5-amp and 2-amp voltage regulator, plus the magneto switch to activate the starter solenoid is directly off the battery.

 

 

 To start the engine, I use a clip lead to ground the master solenoid switch. 

 

 

 Nothing else is connected to the electrical system.

 

 

 Iâ€™ve run a 3/8â€ ground braid cable from the alternator case to a brass ground bus bar. A second 3/8â€ ground braid cable runs from the battery to the steel frame, then to the brass bus bar with no splice in the middle.

 

 

 The voltage regulator is grounded with an 18-ga wire from the ground stud and Terminal #7 to the brass bus bar.

 

 

 Prior to isolating the shipâ€™s electrical bus, I observed the amps clearly charging the battery, initially a high amp draw, and eventually the amps decreased to a single digit number, but the voltage would continue to climb well above the 14.4 volt factory  set point.

 

 

 Lastly;

 

 

 With the engine running (steadily increasing voltage) Pin 6 showed 15.7 volts while Pin 4 showed 1.75 volts.  Could this weird reading point to the problem?

 

 

 Pin 4 of 1.75 volts does not make sense.  

 

 

 Iâ€™m stumped!  Can you offer me any insight?

 

 

 Matt Freeman

 Chugiak, AK

 907-863-2204 Cell

 AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com (AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com)

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

What are you using for a reference point when measuring voltages?  I suggest that you use pin 7 of the LR-3 voltage regulator.

What is the voltage on pin 3 when there is high voltage?

Fill in the blanks on the B&C LR-3 troubleshooting guide and post them here.

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_________________
Joe Gores

donvansanten(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

And put a new battery in your hand held volt meter. A worn out battery has been known to give very inconsistant and variable readings.



On Oct 16, 2017 20:07, "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>

 

 What are you using for a reference point when measuring voltages?Â  I suggest that you use pin 7 of the LR-3 voltage regulator.

 What is the voltage on pin 3 when there is high voltage?

 Fill in the blanks on the B&C LR-3 troubleshooting guide and post them here.

 

 --------

 Joe Gores

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473633#473633

 

 

 

 

 

 

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

At 07:57 PM 10/16/2017, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Bob, 



 I have a new B&C 60 amp alternator and the corresponding LR3C voltage regulator installed in an experimental Glastar.



 All components are new since I thought they were causing the over voltage problem. The ship has about 1600 hours TT. 



 Direct to the problem:



 After I start the engine, the voltage steadily increases until the 5-amp field circuit trips, someplace over 15 volts.



 Iâ€™ve gone through the Technical Manual for Model No. LR3C-14 and LR3C-28 Linear Regulator troubleshooting guide and the voltage and resistance checks meet standards.



 Iâ€™ve also spent countless hours with TJ at B and C technical support trying to unravel this mystery. 



 New parts include:

 BC460-H alternator 

 LR3C-14 voltage regulator 

 Battery master solenoid

 5-amp breaker

 2-amp breaker

 Toggle switch to activate the 5 and 2 amp breakers

 Wire and crimps

 3/8â€ ground braid cable



 Iâ€™ve isolated the ship electrical system to:

   Sealed lead acid battery 

   LR3C voltage regulator 

   BC460-H 60 amp alternator

   Battery solenoid 



 Power to energize the 5-amp and 2-amp voltage regulator, plus the magneto switch to activate the starter solenoid is directly off the battery.



 To start the engine, I use a clip lead to ground the master solenoid switch. 



 Nothing else is connected to the electrical system.



 Iâ€™ve run a 3/8â€ ground braid cable from the alternator case to a brass ground bus bar. A second 3/8â€ ground braid cable runs from the battery to the steel frame, then to the brass bus bar with no splice in the middle.



 The voltage regulator is grounded with an 18-ga wire from the ground stud and Terminal #7 to the brass bus bar.

 

 Prior to isolating the shipâ€™s electrical bus, I observed the amps clearly charging the battery, initially a high amp draw, and eventually the amps decreased to a single digit number, but the voltage would continue to climb well above the 14.4 volt factory set point.



 Lastly;



 With the engine running (steadily increasing voltage) Pin 6 showed 15.7 volts while Pin 4 showed 1.75 volts.  Could this weird reading point to the problem?



 Pin 4 of 1.75 volts does not make sense.  



 Iâ€™m stumped!  Can you offer me any insight?



 Matt Freeman

 Chugiak, AK

 907-863-2204 Cell

 AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com (AlaskaMatt(at)Hotmail.com) 	




   Okay, let's extend your experiment a bit further.



   First, disconnect system wiring to pin 3 (bus sense)

   and jumper pin 3 to pin 6. Connect multimeter (-)

   to pin 7, multimeter (+) to pin 3. Leave all

   other wires to regulator per as originally

   installed.



   Start the engine and compare test voltage with

   displayed voltages on the panel. Test voltage

   should be stable at the regulator factory setpoint

   and in close agreement with panel voltages.



   Dismount the regulator and support it such that

   the base is insulated from airframe. Disconnect

   wire on pin 7 (ground) and run a new test wire

   from 7 to some fastener on engine (we're looking

   for a ground directly to crankcase).



   Make the following connections to the regulator.



   Disconnect existing wires from 6 and 3.

   Jumper Pin 6 (field supply) and pin 3 (bus sense)

   together. Then extend his connection to the alternator

   B-terminal with a wire that has a 5A breaker in

   the line.



   This should make your alternator behave like a

   'one-wire' machine where it gets excitation and

   voltage sense from the b-terminal . . . further,

   it comes on line immediately after engine starts.



   The 1.75 volt value on pin 4 is not out of line.

   This is the output to alternator field. This

   voltage can be all over the place depending on

   engine rpm and system loads.



   The fact that your measured a value more than

   zero but less than bus voltage says that the alternators

   internal smarts are actively working to regulate

   voltage. I have measured voltage on pin 4 as

   low as 1.5 volts in cruising flight with light

   loads.



   With Hook your multimeter (-) to pin 7 ground.



   With battery ON but engine not running, measure

   voltage on pin (6) . . . it should be about 13.0

   volts (battery voltage) then measure pin (4) which

   should be about 1 volt lower. Exact number not

   critical . . . it just needs to be high.



   Hook multimeter (+) to pin (3/6) and start

   the engine. The multimeter should immediately

   rise to factory set point for the regulator . . .

   14.2 volts or thereabouts and hold steady.



   This will verify that the regulator/alternator

   combination are capable of normal operations

   independent of system variables. You can try

   adding system loads and comparing voltage

   on the multimeter with any voltage displays on

   the panel. They should be in close agreement.



   Assuming you are now seeing normal behavior,

   return the regulator to its normal mounting

   configuration, remove wire from 7 to crankcase.

   Restore original system ground wire.



   Restart the engine and see how the test

   and panel voltages compare under variable system

   loads.



   If still good, remove jumper between 3 and 6.

   Leave test wire from b-terminal to 6 in place

   and restore original system bus sens wire to

   pin 3.



   Repeat the voltage measurements experiment

   with engine off and running.



   The final step would be to remove test wire

   between 6 and b-terminal and restore system

   filed supply source to pin 6.



   At some point along these steps I would expect

   to see the test and panel voltages to diverge.



   The critter we're trying to chase out of the

   woodpile is some anomaly in system wiring that

   makes the regulator believe that bus voltage

   is falling at pin 3 whereupon more voltage

   is asserted on the field. Bus voltage then

   rises to some point were pin 6 reached the

   crowbar ov protection set point (15.8 to 16.4

   volts).



   The most likely sources for this divergence

   are compromised conduction paths in either

   bus sense, regulator ground or both.



   Doing the hat-dance described above will help

   us decide which gremlins are at work here.



 

  



 

   Bob . . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

At 11:49 PM 10/17/2017, you wrote:

 Good evening Bob, 



 I finished building the Glastar in 1999 and yes, the system was stable. I wired the ship. The airplane has an O-320-D2J Lycoming engine with a fixed pitch prop. 



 Iâ€™d have to look at my records, but 4-years is about right when the gremlin started showing up. 

  

 <snip> 



 After more trouble shooting, different bus switch settings, I managed to smoke the EXP bus alternator polyfuse.  Smoking the polyfuse I knew was a symptom not the problem.  I sent the regulator back to B&C to see if there was damage.  To my understanding, there was none. 



      . . . and I wouldn't expect any damage. 

      



 I sent the EXP bus for repair and thought I might have a chattering master solenoid, so the solenoid was also replaced.  I also thought the EXP bus was the problem, so I isolated the EXP bus from the bus for troubleshooting. The EXP bus was not the problem.



      how did 'chattering' manifest? Something

      you could hear? Panel equipment misbehaving?



 I also tried using the Ford mechanical regulator, using your wiring diagram. The first time I thought I may have wired it wrong because I smoked the regulator. I wired a second one and smoked that too.



     "Mechanical"?  Dit it look like this . . .



  http://tinyurl.com/y842w3o6



     or was it a taller one like this?



  http://tinyurl.com/y9mjzy28



    When you say, "smoked" . . . did it ever

    work and quit or never worked. Was there

    evidence of 'smoking' like real smoke or

    bad smells?



 I'm now at the state I previously described to you in the last email.



 I kind of jumped the gun and sent the alternator and regulator back to B&C to run as a system, although Iâ€™m not convinced those parts are the problem. When I get the parts back, Iâ€™ll follow your continued experiment and report back. 



    I'm 99.9% sure that there's nothing

    wrong with the hardware. At the same time,

    I'm mystified by the nuisance trips on your

    EXP-Bus.



    Those alternators run so fast on a Lycoming

    that field current in flight is generally

    VERY low . . . typically less than 1/2 amp.

    At taxi rpms with lots of 'stuff' on, the

    field current MIGHT rise to approx 3 amps

    but goes down quickly once enegine rpm exceeds

    1000.



 Lots of folks are stumped and want me to let them know what is the cause when itâ€™s solved. 



 Thank you Bob for your insight and advice!  Please let me know if I can offer you additional information or clarification.



    Pleased to help. Wish we'd started this conversation

    a LONG time ago . . .



    NOTE TO MEMBERS OF THE LIST:  Any time something

    misbehaves in your airplane, figure it out sooner

    rather than later. That's what the LIST is here

    for. Slaying your dragons has two beneficial effects.

    It increases reliability (and by extension confidence)

    in your airplane. Further, it joins the constellation

    of data points from which others may understand and

    manage their own projects.

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popo123

Joined: 08 Feb 2019
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: B&C Alternator and Voltage Regulator

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