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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:23 am Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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I am a long time lurker on this list and have learned a great deal. I am grateful to everyone who contributes.
I am building an RV-14A and have pretty much decided to go with an IO-390 and SDS electronic ignition. I plan to fly VFR, but don’t want to rule out IFR in the future. With that in mind, figure Z-12 in the Aero Electric Connection seems like a good fit. It is elegant in its simplicity yet appears to be a very reliable design. In my case, with no magnetos, a rock solid supply to the ignition modules is paramount. I don’t plan to have a vacuum system, so I’ll have a good spot for a second alternator.
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation?
Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?
Anyway, any advice about how to best provide uninterrupted power to the EIs is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Lyn
Corvallis, Oregon
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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| Quote: |
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. |
not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
diligently maintained is the most reliable source
of power in the airplane.
| Quote: | | My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? |
There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.
| Quote: | | Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation? |
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.
| Quote: | | Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? |
what brand/model ignition systems?
| Quote: | Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?
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Yes.
Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
NOT one LR3 and one SB1
Bob . . .
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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:14 am Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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Thanks for the quick response! I am currently planning to use dual SDS CPI EI.
Lyn
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 11:08 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. |
not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
diligently maintained is the most reliable source
of power in the airplane.
| Quote: | | My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? |
There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.
| Quote: | |  Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation? |
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.
| Quote: | | Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs. Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? |
what brand/model ignition systems?
| Quote: | Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?
|
Yes.
Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
NOT one LR3 and one SB1
Bob . . .
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Z-12 questions |
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| Quote: | | I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation |
Substitute "stable" for "reliable". Without a battery, the alternation output
could vary plus and minus one volt, in other words, unstable. But the
alternator will keep running without a battery until the alternator is shut off
or engine RPM is too low.
One electronic ignition could be connected to the battery bus.
The other EI could be connected to the Essential bus.
Yes, there is a work around for substituting a LED for incandescent.
Bob has drawn diagrams in the past. Basically a load resistor is
connected in parallel with the LED.
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Joe Gores |
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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| Quote: |
what brand/model ignition systems? |
Bob . . .
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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On 10/14/2018 1:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
I have read that non-permanent magnet alternators require a battery for reliable operation. |
not necessarily so . . . but your ship's battery,
diligently maintained is the most reliable source
of power in the airplane.
| Quote: | | My question is, what happens if the battery fails or becomes disconnected? |
There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.
| Quote: | | Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation? |
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.
| Quote: | | Z-12 shows one EI and one mag but I am landing to have two EIs.Where would be the best place to supply power to a second EI? |
what brand/model ignition systems?
| Quote: | Finally, I plan to have a glass panel and a small LED annunciator panel. Is there a work around for the incandescent bulb requirement of the B&C regulators?
|
Yes.
Plan for TWO LR3A-14 alternator controllers.
NOT one LR3 and one SB1
Bob . . . |
That's good news; I've tried to do something similar to my electrically dependent auto engine conversion that has two identical alternators. Looking forward to seeing it looks like with your more experienced eye on it. You can expect a lot more demand for this; more and more people are using either the SDS or other full-electronic engine controllers, even on traditional engines.
Charlie
 Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html
Lyn
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 12:40 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
 what brand/model ignition systems? |
Bob . . .
|
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.html
Lyn |
Okay, looked over the website but didn't
see any data on current consumption. Are
these numbers available to you?
Bob . . .
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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:56 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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I’ll see if I can get those numbers from Ross at SDS. Thanks.
Lyn
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... Â the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.Â
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.htmlÂ
Lyn |
Okay, looked over the website but didn't
see any data on current consumption. Are
these numbers available to you?
Bob . . .
|
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lyn.robertson(at)gmail.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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I found this...
Low current draw/ long spark duration. 4 cylinder coil pack and CPI draw about 1.2 amps at 2500 rpm.
Lyn
On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 17:52 Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | At 04:14 PM 10/14/2018, you wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Bob,
sorry, I thought I answered that... Â the ignition system I plan to use is made by SDS (Simple Digital Systems) out of Canada. The Model is CPI (coil pack ignition) for 4 cylinder Lycomings.Â
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpi.htmlÂ
Lyn |
Okay, looked over the website but didn't
see any data on current consumption. Are
these numbers available to you?
Bob . . .
|
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rick(at)beebe.org
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:28 pm Post subject: Z-12 questions |
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On 10/14/2018 2:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
| Quote: | There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.
| Quote: | | Will the alternators continue to operate as long as they aren’t both powered down and back up? Is a second, smaller battery required to ensure alternator operation? |
The proposed new z-figure will offer all the advantages
of Z-12 (originally designed for TC aircraft) and
Z-13 combined.
|
What's the timeframe on this being published?
--Rick
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prestonkavanagh
Joined: 27 Nov 2018
Posts: 16
Location: Tarpon Springs
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| Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 questions |
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I'll echo Rick on that one... I'm also planning for a 4-cylinder dual ECU system using SDS components. It would be great to get best thinking.
It's clear Bob wants to build us up to think about and know our aircraft, rather than applying a cookbook approach. And I've got a fair amount of load analysis to do before I start ordering parts and running wires. But I hope we see an updated Z-12 before too much longer.
Also, I was at SnF yesterday and today. B&C has a great little booth, with a hard copy catalog, components on the tables, and a smart person willing to talk about problems and solutions.
My thanks to all for the comments posted above.
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PBK3
PA-12, BD-4, RV6a, gliders, Rutan canards |
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ssonixx
Joined: 27 Apr 2013
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Z-12 questions |
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| nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote: |
There will be a variant of Z-12 published that takes
some cues from Z-13/8 where the second alternator is
drives the battery bus as opposed to the main bus.
|
I was curious if this “variant” was ever published? I’d like to compare this to Z-14 as I am working with an electrically dependent engine as well.
Thank you.
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