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XS mono max gross weight

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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:10 pm Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Gents,



My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).



So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?



Fred A194

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:40 am Post subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight

Fred,



There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight.   I can send you a copy if needed.



In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test. 



Jim & Heather

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:02 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Hi Jim,

Please share,

Thx!

Pete



On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 6:48 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Fred,

 

 There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight.Â  Â I can send you a copy if needed.

 

 In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test. 

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490316#490316

 

 

 

 

 

 

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raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:15 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Fred,     

I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.     

I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and       that helped.     

It was also possible to make a 2+2 EuropaÂ  (max 60 kg for back       seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if       she is pretty enough).     

My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a bit       more).

          

 I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for       OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost empty       tank then.

                 allekirjoitus       - Raimo

     

     

     

     

     

     Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo       0:09:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)



Gents,



My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).



So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?



Fred A194

wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

I flew medellin panama taking off at over 1500.....skrg is at about 6000 and hot.Â  Â I didnt notice any difference in performance.Â 

William Daniell

LONGPORT

+57 310 295 0744



On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 07:18 Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		                     

Fred,     

I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.     

I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and       that helped.     

It was also possible to make a 2+2 EuropaÂ  (max 60 kg for back       seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if       she is pretty enough).     

My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a bit       more).

          

 I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for       OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost empty       tank then.

                        - Raimo

     

     

     

     

     

     Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo       0:09:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		          	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)



Gents,



My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).



So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?



Fred A194

freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:02 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Jim,



Thanks...A copy of Andyâ€™s letter would be very much appreciated .

Fred 



Sent from my iPhone 



On Jul 16, 2019, at 3:54 AM, Peter Zutrauen <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hi Jim,

Please share,

Thx!

Pete



On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 6:48 AM h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>

 

 Fred,

 

 There is a memo written by Andy Draper that outlines the reduction in CG envelope required when using 1450 as max gross weight.   I can send you a copy if needed.

 

 In addition, we tested at incrementally higher weights and range of CGs as part of our 40 hour test. 

 

 Jim & Heather

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490316#490316

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 WIKI -

 errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Raimo,

The trigear has the same characteristics.  Weight is not the main problem.  The trigear soft steel attachments will wear as the gear twisting will cause the bolt hole at the gear top to wear.  The gear leg supports will get elongated and the bolt holes elongated and the gear gets quite loose feeling when the plane is jacked.



As far as performance, I found the CG does tighten a bit as you approach 1600 pounds.  I was surprised that the aft CG was not really that bad, but a forward CG made landing flare out less than enjoyable forward of 59 inches.  Sink rates approaching in the flare at 60 require attention and more care in the round out.  Any power off and the sink rate is noticeable.  A 912 or 912S with fixed pitch prop makes go arounds at over gross conditions a bit dicey with the flaps and gear full down.  With the trigear, half flaps is quite comfortable to land with, and 10 degrees on takeoff eliminates that old sinking feeling on takeoff.



My paper attached basically explained to my customers who hadn’t actually flight tested with me, some of my concerns and considerations.



I must admit, that I have taken off at a full 1600 lbs in 12AY.  I’m not proud of that, but when you have to move a 350 pound football player, the plane can do it.  It was the first time I’ve ever rotated my Europa to takeoff attitude and it just sat on the runway and waited a bit.  The 914 pulled me off and we were well on our way.  Anita and I did a trip at 1500 or so pounds.  The trigear without pilot and passenger after fueling will sit on its tail.  With pilot and pax and full fuel, the CG was right at 62.5” and the pitch force per G and stall characteristics were acceptable.



A 1450 pound Europa with the CG from 59 to 62 is just fine.  With full flaps in the mono, this CG range is more than conservative.  In a mono, that 16 PSI tire may need to be pumped up a bit as it is really going to flex during landing and taxi.  You may spin the tire on the wheel and tear the tube in this condition.  I’m not worried about the gear mechanism strength that much.  The rubber block needs to be looked at though.  Anything above 1450 and it starts looking kind of flat.  Cracks will soon form and then you need a new rubber block.



Anyway, my two cents are in the paper on Wt. and balance, CG range, and loading.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi>

Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:44:15 AM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight

Fred,



I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.



I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago, and that helped.



It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa  (max 60 kg for back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type woman, if she is pretty enough)

raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:32 am Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Bud,     

I will comment between the lines:

                 allekirjoitus       

     

     Bud Yerly kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo       17:26:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                                       

Raimo,         

The trigear has the same characteristics.            Weight is not the main problem.  The trigear soft steel           attachments will wear as the gear twisting will cause the bolt           hole at the gear top to wear.  The gear leg supports will get           elongated and the bolt holes elongated and the gear gets quite           loose feeling when the plane is jacked.                 

     	
     That´s obviously.

      	  Quote: 	
		                  

          

As far as performance, I found the CG does           tighten a bit as you approach 1600 pounds.  I was surprised           that the aft CG was not really that bad, but a forward CG made           landing flare out less than enjoyable forward of 59 inches.            Sink rates approaching in the flare at 60 require attention           and more care in the round out.  Any power off and the sink           rate is noticeable.  A 912 or 912S with fixed pitch prop makes           go arounds at over gross conditions a bit dicey with the flaps           and gear full down.  With the trigear, half flaps is quite           comfortable to land with, and 10 degrees on takeoff eliminates           that old sinking feeling on takeoff.       

     	
     Exactly. That´s why I moved to the CS-prop. I have Airmaster &     912S and I´m 100%  pleased.

      	  Quote: 	
		                  

          

My paper attached basically explained to my           customers who hadn’t actually flight tested with me, some of           my concerns and considerations.         

          

I must admit, that I have taken off at a           full 1600 lbs in 12AY.  I’m not proud of that, but when you           have to move a 350 pound football player, the plane can do           it.  It was the first time I’ve ever rotated my Europa to           takeoff attitude and it just sat on the runway and waited a           bit.  The 914 pulled me off and we were well on our way.            Anita and I did a trip at 1500 or so pounds.  The trigear           without pilot and passenger after fueling will sit on its           tail.  With pilot and pax and full fuel, the CG was right at           62.5” and the pitch force per G and stall characteristics were           acceptable.                 

     	
     Oh, I could ever imagine to take a passenger 350 pound /almost 160     kg! How in the hell there was room enough for him? Once I flew to     Denmark Endealave island (say 4 hours) with a passenger 77 inches     tall (196 cm) and that was a nightmare, when coming back. He was     quite skinny, weight around 240 lbs /110 kg.

      	  Quote: 	
		                  

          

A 1450 pound Europa with the CG from 59 to           62 is just fine.  With full flaps in the mono, this CG range           is more than conservative.  In a mono, that 16 PSI tire may           need to be pumped up a bit as it is really going to flex           during landing and taxi.  You may spin the tire on the wheel           and tear the tube in this condition.  I’m not worried about           the gear mechanism strength that much.  The rubber block needs           to be looked at though.  Anything above 1450 and it starts           looking kind of flat.  Cracks will soon form and then you need           a new rubber block.       

     	
     

Confirm! I have since my regular tire problems used always high       pressure & nitrogen & tyre puncture liquid inside always.     

(I will never forget when landing with an empty monowheel,       landing was super-short and taking the plane off the       runway quickly was...extremely difficult without       destroying it)

           	  Quote: 	
		                  

          

Anyway, my two cents are in the paper on           Wt. and balance, CG range, and loading.       

     	
     

Your two cents are worth of two Dollars /Euros at least!     

- Raimo

           	  Quote: 	
		                  

          

Best Regards,         

Bud Yerly         

          

Sent from              Mail for Windows 10         

        

              From:           owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com)           <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> (owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com) on behalf of           Raimo Toivio <raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi> (raimo.toivio(at)rwm.fi)

           Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 6:44:15 AM

           To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

           Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight          

       

                

Fred,         

I have MTOW 1450 lbs /658 kg.         

I got a nice letter from Mr. Andy Draper say 15-years ago,           and that helped.         

It was also possible to make a 2+2 Europa  (max 60 kg for           back seats, suitable for two children or just one model type           woman, if she is pretty enough).         

My Europas naked weight is 919 lbs /417 kg (today obviously a           bit more).

                  

I know around 1550 lbs /703 kg is not a problem for           OH-XRT during take-off - better to land with almost           empty tank then.

                             allekirjoitus           - Raimo

         

         

         

         

         

         Fred Klein kirjoitti 16.7.2019 klo           0:09:

         

          	  Quote: 	
		              	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <freddythek10(at)gmail.com> (freddythek10(at)gmail.com)



Gents,



My XS mono owners manual lists the max gross weight at 1370 lbs. yet my understanding is that most Europas in the US are tagged at 1450 lbs., and I know of one which was approved at 1600 lbs. (believe it or not).



So my question is, how is a higher figure justified if the FAA asks about it?



Fred A194

h&jeuropa

Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:48 am Post subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight

Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.



Jim

mtoww.PDF

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freddythek10(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Thank you Sir !!



Sent from my iPhone 



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Jul 16, 2019, at 12:48 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.

 

 Jim

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490339#490339

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/mtoww_384.pdf

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: XS mono max gross weight

Jim, Ramio and Fred, 

Attached is a VN diagram and the effects of the 1450 increase I did for Europa some 13 years ago.  I never put this in my previous post as it goes over the head of many pilots.  My numbers are slightly different than the Draper/Dykins  numbers and I believe they are being very conservative.  Andy was gone by 2006 and no one at Europa was willing to pay for the flight testing so it just got dropped. 

  

Anyway, I think a CG Limit of 59 and 62 are fine for most of us.  If you have a mono with a heavy nose and you added a tail weight to counter balance it, and had long wings, then I expect that Don Dykins concern for keeping the CG forward  a bit more may be prudent.  A short wing Europa Mono or Trigear for that matter and a pilot with good feet, I’m not concerned about much other than the increase in sink rate and stopping the rate of sink prior to ground effect. 

  

Great discussion but without flight testing and confirmation it’s worthless.  I flight tested my aircraft, and it is fine in all phases at 1450. 

  

I still don’t recommend anything over 1450.  Up to 1450 the change in performance and handling are negligible in my opinion.  For the mono pilots, it is like going from a Classic to an XS mono wheel.  That extra 50 pounds of the XS and  gear in some cases made for me to have to pay more attention during the round out and flare.  For those with a heavy plane and glider wings, for God’s sake do the Mod 78 and keep it light.  Fly the plane within the CG limits discussed above and you should  be just fine.  However, go and flight test and make sure.  Start 5 mistakes high to give your self more time if you upset the aircraft or get into an unusual attitude, or let someone who is experienced do the flight tests.  I have never found a poor handling  problem in either the short or long wing at 1450 or slightly over that in the CG range discussed, but then again, we flight tested. 

  

Best Regards, 

Bud Yerly 

  

Sent from  Mail for Windows 10 

  

  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net>

 Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 3:48:09 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: XS mono max gross weight  

 

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net>

 

 Attached is memo from Andy Draper concerning increased max gross weight.

 

 Jim

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490339#490339

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/mtoww_384.pdf

 

 

 

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