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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 390
Location: Aberdeen area
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 Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: Screws for engine top cowling |
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My aircraft was originally built as a Classic and more recently converted to Neville Eyre engine cowlings, while I continue to use the same kind of captive nuts and screws ( 23 off ) as before.
I have a considerable assortment of screwdrivers and several different styles of Phillips screwdriver tips, yet even with considerable care and not using an electric driver, it doesn't take too many re-fastenings before the slots in the screw heads become worn out.
I have two questions. Although the builder's manual describes the screws as EU 11, what is the correct part number in the LAS Aerospace catalogue, or any other source, for me to use when ordering the short screws? Which Phillips tip is the best to use with these screws?
Thanks, Jonathan
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Jonathan and all,
For some reason it took months to get back on the list here. I have to admit. It was my fault. These spam defense filters are interesting. Well, so are airplanes and they are expensive in time and material to maintain just like computer servers.
Jonathan,
You will find that stainless steel machine screws of all types are fairly soft. Bits are very hard. Any slipping of the head will damage the Phillips head and make it unusable. HAVE A TON OF SPARES!
The most widely used cowl screw is the AN 507 or MS24693 stainless screws of , 5/8 and 1 inch (MS24693-C272, -C273, C274) and spares must be kept on hand. These 100 degree countersunk screws have a small head and can strip easily. These type cowl screws are a #10 screw and take a #2 Phillips head. The #8 screws take a #2 Phillips and the #6 screws take a #1 Phillips. On the web search for How to choose the right tip for screw types. There is some good stuff to learn.
To prevent stripping out of your screws, I strongly recommend a large handle ratcheting screwdriver with removable tips that fits your hand properly, is easy to rotate, and allows you to push and rotate securely. My favorite screwdrivers are my Snap-On ratcheting type and the straight handle ones are by Klien.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01D5E77C.8EB20510[/img]Expensive unless you get a deal on a Snap-On.
For those really lazy like me, I use an electric screwdriver, but I only use one with a friction clutch or torque setting. I have recommended the friction clutch driver to virtually all my in shop and on line clients. The electric screw driver can be of only 3 volts or as high as 8. More power means more torque, which means it will be easier to strip out a head. The torque clutch prevents over tightening for those of you who set the screw to ridiculous torques. A #10 stainless machine screw only needs 31 inch pounds to be fully tight. That is #8 position on most electric screw drivers in my experience. I use the term pinky tight.
Another important point is ergonomics. A proper sized and shaped handle will allow a good grip, proper positioning and give you a feel as well as a torque clutch to prevent driving the screw in too tight, allow you to hold the bit firmly in the screw head and prevent cross threading the screw fully into its seat. Keep a good tight quarter or stubby screw driver set and a ratcheting handle close quarter type.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
A stainless screw in a steel nutplate (K1000 style) will eventually wear the soft stainless out. Throw the screw away and replace it if its head is worn, the threads are galled or bent. If the nutplate is loose, simply insert a steel screw in the nutplate about two threads short of the nutplate tip and use a Vice Grip to squeeze the nutplate just a bit. If the nutplate is way to tight, run a tap in it slightly to ease the squeeze.
As fare as electric screw drivers, I have a Hitachi DB3DL2 3.6 volt screw gun now. Easy to use, can be straight or pistol grip, the drive buttons can be used single handed and the collet lock is smooth and easy to use. I buy proper locking bits (and nut drivers) of the sizes needed. My original electric screw gun was a very cheap 3 volt with a non locking collar, and it worked OK. As I used the cheapy gun more and more, I upgraded to a locking collet. Good tools are indispensable.
[img]cid:image007.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
It is essential that you keep a list of spares. Screws are like oil and gas as far as Im concerned, consumables.
Clients have noted I have a spare screw, rivet, nut, bolt, wheel bearing, pitot tips, clamps, hoses, tubes and tires so I am not stuck looking for stuff when I needed it. If it is a screw on my plane, panel, or wheel pant, I have a spare in the shop and for those frequently dropped, lost or specialized, I keep it in my cockpit tool kit spares. I have a list for my expendables on my website and drawers full of stuff in the shop for each screw, washer, nut, etc. On my annual, if a screw is questionable, corroded, or compromised, I throw it out.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: JonathanMilbank (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 7:53 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Screws for top engine cowling
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk>
My aircraft was originally built as a Classic and more recently converted to Neville Eyre engine cowlings, while I continue to use the same kind of captive nuts and screws ( 23 off ) as before.
I have a considerable assortment of screwdrivers and several different styles of Phillips screwdriver tips, yet even with considerable care and not using an electric driver, it doesn't take too many re-fastenings before the slots in the screw heads become worn out.
I have two questions. Although the builder's manual describes the screws as EU 11, what is the correct part number in the LAS Aerospace catalogue, or any other source, for me to use when ordering the short screws? Which Phillips tip is the best to use with these screws?
Thanks, Jonathan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494897#494897
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 390
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Wow, what a fulsome reply, thanks Bud! Your reports on various aircraft type flight characteristics, which you have test flown, must also have been pretty comprehensive.
Anyhow you've given me plenty of food for thought and I'll take it all to heart; especially keeping plenty of spare screws and regarding them as consumables. The suggestions on appropriate tools and how to use them properly is equally appreciated.
Note to self: "Ignore my maternal Scottish heritage and desist from trying to extract maximum value from things before discarding them!"
And thanks also for replying so quickly.
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:40 am Post subject: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Ive been wondering if there is an alternative to the phillips heads. I use hex sockets #10-32 on my belly plates and everywhere else precisely for the stripping issue. So much easier if not quite as aerodynamic.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 22:55 Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jonathan and all,
For some reason it took months to get back on the list here. I have to admit. It was my fault. These spam defense filters are interesting. Well, so are airplanes and they are expensive in time and material to maintain just like computer servers.
Jonathan,
You will find that stainless steel machine screws of all types are fairly soft. Bits are very hard. Any slipping of the head will damage the Phillips head and make it unusable. HAVE A TON OF SPARES!
The most widely used cowl screw is the AN 507 or MS24693 stainless screws of ½, 5/8 and 1 inch (MS24693-C272, -C273, C274) and spares must be kept on hand. These 100 degree countersunk screws have a small head and can strip easily. These type cowl screws are a #10 screw and take a #2 Phillips head. The #8 screws take a #2 Phillips and the #6 screws take a #1 Phillips. On the web search for “How to choose the right tip for screw types”. There is some good stuff to learn.
To prevent stripping out of your screws, I strongly recommend a large handle ratcheting screwdriver with removable tips that fits your hand properly, is easy to rotate, and allows you to push and rotate securely. My favorite screwdrivers are my Snap-On ratcheting type and the straight handle ones are by Klien.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01D5E77C.8EB20510[/img]Expensive unless you get a deal on a Snap-On.
For those really lazy like me, I use an electric screwdriver, but I only use one with a friction clutch or torque setting. I have recommended the friction clutch driver to virtually all my in shop and on line clients. The electric screw driver can be of only 3 volts or as high as 8. More power means more torque, which means it will be easier to strip out a head. The torque clutch prevents over tightening for those of you who set the screw to ridiculous torques. A #10 stainless machine screw only needs 31 inch pounds to be fully tight. That is #8 position on most electric screw drivers in my experience. I use the term pinky tight.
Another important point is ergonomics. A proper sized and shaped handle will allow a good grip, proper positioning and give you a feel as well as a torque clutch to prevent driving the screw in too tight, allow you to hold the bit firmly in the screw head and prevent cross threading the screw fully into its seat. Keep a good tight quarter or stubby screw driver set and a ratcheting handle close quarter type.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
A stainless screw in a steel nutplate (K1000 style) will eventually wear the soft stainless out. Throw the screw away and replace it if its head is worn, the threads are galled or bent. If the nutplate is loose, simply insert a steel screw in the nutplate about two threads short of the nutplate tip and use a Vice Grip to squeeze the nutplate just a bit. If the nutplate is way to tight, run a tap in it slightly to ease the squeeze.
As fare as electric screw drivers, I have a Hitachi DB3DL2 3.6 volt screw gun now. Easy to use, can be straight or pistol grip, the drive buttons can be used single handed and the collet lock is smooth and easy to use. I buy proper locking bits (and nut drivers) of the sizes needed. My original electric screw gun was a very cheap 3 volt with a non locking collar, and it worked OK. As I used the cheapy gun more and more, I upgraded to a locking collet. Good tools are indispensable.
[img]cid:image007.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
It is essential that you keep a list of spares. Screws are like oil and gas as far as I’m concerned, consumables.
Clients have noted I have a spare screw, rivet, nut, bolt, wheel bearing, pitot tips, clamps, hoses, tubes and tires so I am not stuck looking for stuff when I needed it. If it is a screw on my plane, panel, or wheel pant, I have a spare in the shop and for those frequently dropped, lost or specialized, I keep it in my cockpit tool kit spares. I have a list for my expendables on my website and drawers full of stuff in the shop for each screw, washer, nut, etc. On my annual, if a screw is questionable, corroded, or compromised, I throw it out.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: JonathanMilbank (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 7:53 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Screws for top engine cowling
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
My aircraft was originally built as a Classic and more recently converted to Neville Eyre engine cowlings, while I continue to use the same kind of captive nuts and screws ( 23 off ) as before.
I have a considerable assortment of screwdrivers and several different styles of Phillips screwdriver tips, yet even with considerable care and not using an electric driver, it doesn't take too many re-fastenings before the slots in the screw heads become worn out.
I have two questions. Although the builder's manual describes the screws as EU 11, what is the correct part number in the LAS Aerospace catalogue, or any other source, for me to use when ordering the short screws? Which Phillips tip is the best to use with these screws?
Thanks, Jonathan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494897#494897
===========
Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
r> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:22 am Post subject: Screws for top engine cowling |
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There are some. Research the screw manufacturers. You need a #10, 100 degree countersink with a flat head.
Happy web browsing.
Bud
Get Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 9:38:08 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Screws for top engine cowling
Ive been wondering if there is an alternative to the phillips heads. I use hex sockets #10-32 on my belly plates and everywhere else precisely for the stripping issue. So much easier if not quite as aerodynamic.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 22:55 Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Jonathan and all,
For some reason it took months to get back on the list here. I have to admit. It was my fault. These spam defense filters are interesting. Well, so are airplanes and they are expensive in time and material to maintain just like computer servers.
Jonathan,
You will find that stainless steel machine screws of all types are fairly soft. Bits are very hard. Any slipping of the head will damage the Phillips head and make it unusable. HAVE A TON OF SPARES!
The most widely used cowl screw is the AN 507 or MS24693 stainless screws of , 5/8 and 1 inch (MS24693-C272, -C273, C274) and spares must be kept on hand. These 100 degree countersunk screws have a small head and can strip easily. These type cowl screws are a #10 screw and take a #2 Phillips head. The #8 screws take a #2 Phillips and the #6 screws take a #1 Phillips. On the web search for How to choose the right tip for screw types. There is some good stuff to learn.
To prevent stripping out of your screws, I strongly recommend a large handle ratcheting screwdriver with removable tips that fits your hand properly, is easy to rotate, and allows you to push and rotate securely. My favorite screwdrivers are my Snap-On ratcheting type and the straight handle ones are by Klien.
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01D5E77C.8EB20510[/img]Expensive unless you get a deal on a Snap-On.
For those really lazy like me, I use an electric screwdriver, but I only use one with a friction clutch or torque setting. I have recommended the friction clutch driver to virtually all my in shop and on line clients. The electric screw driver can be of only 3 volts or as high as 8. More power means more torque, which means it will be easier to strip out a head. The torque clutch prevents over tightening for those of you who set the screw to ridiculous torques. A #10 stainless machine screw only needs 31 inch pounds to be fully tight. That is #8 position on most electric screw drivers in my experience. I use the term pinky tight.
Another important point is ergonomics. A proper sized and shaped handle will allow a good grip, proper positioning and give you a feel as well as a torque clutch to prevent driving the screw in too tight, allow you to hold the bit firmly in the screw head and prevent cross threading the screw fully into its seat. Keep a good tight quarter or stubby screw driver set and a ratcheting handle close quarter type.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
A stainless screw in a steel nutplate (K1000 style) will eventually wear the soft stainless out. Throw the screw away and replace it if its head is worn, the threads are galled or bent. If the nutplate is loose, simply insert a steel screw in the nutplate about two threads short of the nutplate tip and use a Vice Grip to squeeze the nutplate just a bit. If the nutplate is way to tight, run a tap in it slightly to ease the squeeze.
As fare as electric screw drivers, I have a Hitachi DB3DL2 3.6 volt screw gun now. Easy to use, can be straight or pistol grip, the drive buttons can be used single handed and the collet lock is smooth and easy to use. I buy proper locking bits (and nut drivers) of the sizes needed. My original electric screw gun was a very cheap 3 volt with a non locking collar, and it worked OK. As I used the cheapy gun more and more, I upgraded to a locking collet. Good tools are indispensable.
[img]cid:image007.jpg(at)01D5E77F.4F80C680[/img]
It is essential that you keep a list of spares. Screws are like oil and gas as far as Im concerned, consumables.
Clients have noted I have a spare screw, rivet, nut, bolt, wheel bearing, pitot tips, clamps, hoses, tubes and tires so I am not stuck looking for stuff when I needed it. If it is a screw on my plane, panel, or wheel pant, I have a spare in the shop and for those frequently dropped, lost or specialized, I keep it in my cockpit tool kit spares. I have a list for my expendables on my website and drawers full of stuff in the shop for each screw, washer, nut, etc. On my annual, if a screw is questionable, corroded, or compromised, I throw it out.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: JonathanMilbank (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 7:53 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Screws for top engine cowling
--> Europa-List message posted by: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk (jdmilbank(at)yahoo.co.uk)>
My aircraft was originally built as a Classic and more recently converted to Neville Eyre engine cowlings, while I continue to use the same kind of captive nuts and screws ( 23 off ) as before.
I have a considerable assortment of screwdrivers and several different styles of Phillips screwdriver tips, yet even with considerable care and not using an electric driver, it doesn't take too many re-fastenings before the slots in the screw heads become worn out.
I have two questions. Although the builder's manual describes the screws as EU 11, what is the correct part number in the LAS Aerospace catalogue, or any other source, for me to use when ordering the short screws? Which Phillips tip is the best to use with these screws?
Thanks, Jonathan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=494897#494897
===========
Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
r> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
st Email Forum -
pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
===========
p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
ums.matronics.com
===========
p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
matronics.com
===========
p; - List Contribution Web Site -
p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
|
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Hi All,
We also had problems with Phillips head screws becoming worn. We have changed to 100 deg stainless steel Torx head screws. We purchase them from MicroFasteners.
Here is the webpage: https://www.microfasteners.com/home.php?cat=620
We use a small amount of BoeLube to handle the possible galling due to different metals.
Jim & Heather
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 390
Location: Aberdeen area
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Screws for top engine cowling |
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|
Hi Jim and Heather,
The Torx headed screws seem to be the answer to my prayers, so I've looked at the Microfasteners link which you gave. Could you confirm whether the threads of the Torx screws match the threads on the MS24693 screws which I use at present?
There isn't any UK supplier of the Torx headed screws which I can find on the internet, so it would be good to get some reassurance before I place a foreign order with Microfasteners.
Thanks,
Jonathan
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erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:28 pm Post subject: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Hi Jonathan,
You may want to consider using Southco quarter turn fasteners. They are available in both slotted and Phillips head. I also installed a hinge along the side of the cowl with removable hinge pin, in lieu of fasteners. This makes for a cowl that is quick and easy to remove.
I believe there is a Europa Club mod for the fasteners. I chose to go with one size of fastener -260 even though the thickness of the cowl and firewall flange vary. I simply padded out the back of the receptacle to accommodate the one fastener length.
Erich Trombley
N28ET
Classic mono 914
____________________________________________________________
Urologist Tells Men To "Fix" Their ED With This New Trick!
Med Journal
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5e4f4d96488474d901af4st03vuc
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:50 am Post subject: Re: Screws for top engine cowling |
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Jonathan,
Yes, MS24963 are what we call fine thread, actually 10-32 (diameter is #10, 32 threads per inch). MicroFastner FCMXS1112 are also 10-32. The 100 deg head makes these difficult to find.
Jim & Heather
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JonathanMilbank
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 390
Location: Aberdeen area
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| Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Screws for engine top cowling |
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Good morning Jim and Heather.
I've sent you a pm. Thanks.
Jonathan
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jglazener
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 76
Location: Schoonhoven, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Screws for engine top cowling |
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I have also used quarter turn fasteners, in this case from MilSpec products
https://milspecproducts.com/products
They have two versions- the 2000 and 4000 series. On their advice I got the 4000. These are of warfighting standard, they can easily hold an Apache together. You will certainly not have any problems wearing out the heads, these are TOUGH. In retrospect the 2000 would probably have been fine too- slightly cheaper and smaller.
The big advantage is that the recepticles are adjustable. You screw in the fasteners to the right depth, pull out a small pin and you're done.
Can't imagine having to screw and unscrew the cowlings every time, losing and replacing dud screws. Raimo Toivu, who originally recommended the fasteners to me, doesn't even have water and oil hatches because the cowlings come off and on so easily.
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Jeroen
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