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echristley(at)att.net
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 Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:36 pm Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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Would a solar trickle charger help? I got one off Amazon for less than $15 that is flexible and tops out at 14.4V.
On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 10:25:34 AM EDT, Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com> wrote:
Greetings,
This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the membership of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by posting here.
If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid battery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it be recharged to maintain a normal life? My old jeep has a small load while parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me to disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected. If I charge it back up with my smart charger before the (nominally 70deg f) battery voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Boulder/Longmont CO
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:37 pm Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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Steve,
I am a strong advocate of clipping on a "Maintainer" type small charger to our lead acid batteries. They don't have to be expensive types. One brand Schumacher is low cost, good quality, and easily available. Connect it and leave it on.
To answer your question, here is my personal opinion. After the maintainer charges the battery and gets to the point where it senses full charge, it switches back to the "maintenance" or float state. I believe the voltage range should be stabilized at: 13.2 to 13.4 volts.
If the battery is aged, I like 13.2 best. If the battery is young, 13.4 is good. This is based mainly on cell water loss. Just a tad too high, e.g. 13.4 instead of 13.2, might make the battery gas a bit.
So, the only way to check what the maintainer's float voltage is set to, is to accurately measure the final resting voltage. The 1st generations of these clever little units where adjustable for final voltage, but, alas, I believe the later generations are sealed. If your unit is 13.4v, use it with the knowledge that you might have to add a tad of distilled water every now and again. The newer sealed type batteries, probably never.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:30 AM Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com (steve(at)tomasara.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Greetings,
This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the membership of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by posting here.
If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid battery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it be recharged to maintain a normal life? My old jeep has a small load while parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me to disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected. If I charge it back up with my smart charger before the (nominally 70deg f) battery voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Boulder/Longmont CO
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bcone1381
Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 42
Location: Southeast Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:57 am Post subject: Re: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start |
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Vic Syracuse has an article in this months Sport Aviation (June 2020) that deals with Batteries and Alternators.
He says not to mistreat a battery by constantly leaving it on a non approved battery tender/charger between flights.
Help me understand what an "approved charger" is or what to avoid. Specific products would be great. Are different chargers required for different battery types?
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Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>
Vic Syracuse has an article in this months Sport Aviation (June 2020) that deals with Batteries and Alternators.
he says not to mistreat a battery by constantly leaving it on a non approved battery tender/charger between flight.
Help me understand what an "approved charger" or what to avoid. Specific products will be good. May I assume maybe there are different chargers for different battery types?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
I haven't read the article yet, but suspect he's talking about 'trickle chargers' that can output significantly higher than desirable voltage when the battery is fully charged and no longer loads the charger's output. This results in overcharging and shortening of the battery's life. Even with 'smart' chargers, if you don't monitor what they're doing, they could develop faults that would overcharge the battery.
Here's the thing. With any current-tech sealed lead acid battery, or any lithium tech battery, their self discharge rates are so low that they will go for months, or even years, without being connected to a charger. Unless you only fly once a year, you're unlikely to ever need an external charge as long as the battery is healthy enough to be safe to fly with. I've had years in the past decade when family responsibilities kept my flying down to about 5-10 hrs a year, and I still rarely needed to charge the battery in my plane. My choice is to 'just (don't) do it', unless I've done something stupid like leave a load on the battery while I'm not flying. If it's not there, it can't hurt the battery. I'm uncomfortable with even leaving a smart charger connected to a battery when I'm not around to check on it occasionally, because a catastrophic fault could damage a lot more than the charger/battery combo.
FWIW,
Charlie
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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I let my fully charged EarthX sit for 12 months thinking it would be fine. It was not. It was completely discharged and would not take a re-charge.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:49 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>
Vic Syracuse has an article in this months Sport Aviation (June 2020) that deals with Batteries and Alternators.
he says not to mistreat a battery by constantly leaving it on a non approved battery tender/charger between flight.
Help me understand what an "approved charger" or what to avoid. Specific products will be good. May I assume maybe there are different chargers for different battery types?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
I haven't read the article yet, but suspect he's talking about 'trickle chargers' that can output significantly higher than desirable voltage when the battery is fully charged and no longer loads the charger's output. This results in overcharging and shortening of the battery's life. Even with 'smart' chargers, if you don't monitor what they're doing, they could develop faults that would overcharge the battery.
Here's the thing. With any current-tech sealed lead acid battery, or any lithium tech battery, their self discharge rates are so low that they will go for months, or even years, without being connected to a charger. Unless you only fly once a year, you're unlikely to ever need an external charge as long as the battery is healthy enough to be safe to fly with. I've had years in the past decade when family responsibilities kept my flying down to about 5-10 hrs a year, and I still rarely needed to charge the battery in my plane. My choice is to 'just (don't) do it', unless I've done something stupid like leave a load on the battery while I'm not flying. If it's not there, it can't hurt the battery. I'm uncomfortable with even leaving a smart charger connected to a battery when I'm not around to check on it occasionally, because a catastrophic fault could damage a lot more than the charger/battery combo.
FWIW,
Charlie
|
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:53 pm Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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On 6/16/2020 2:07 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | I let my fully charged EarthX sit for 12 months thinking it would be fine. It was not. It was completely discharged and would not take a re-charge.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:49 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>
Vic Syracuse has an article in this months Sport Aviation (June 2020) that deals with Batteries and Alternators.
he says not to mistreat a battery by constantly leaving it on a non approved battery tender/charger between flight.
Help me understand what an "approved charger" or what to avoid. Specific products will be good. May I assume maybe there are different chargers for different battery types?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
I haven't read the article yet, but suspect he's talking about 'trickle chargers' that can output significantly higher than desirable voltage when the battery is fully charged and no longer loads the charger's output. This results in overcharging and shortening of the battery's life. Even with 'smart' chargers, if you don't monitor what they're doing, they could develop faults that would overcharge the battery.
Here's the thing. With any current-tech sealed lead acid battery, or any lithium tech battery, their self discharge rates are so low that they will go for months, or even years, without being connected to a charger. Unless you only fly once a year, you're unlikely to ever need an external charge as long as the battery is healthy enough to be safe to fly with. I've had years in the past decade when family responsibilities kept my flying down to about 5-10 hrs a year, and I still rarely needed to charge the battery in my plane. My choice is to 'just (don't) do it', unless I've done something stupid like leave a load on the battery while I'm not flying. If it's not there, it can't hurt the battery. I'm uncomfortable with even leaving a smart charger connected to a battery when I'm not around to check on it occasionally, because a catastrophic fault could damage a lot more than the charger/battery combo.
FWIW,
Charlie
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Hmmm...
From the EarthX website on the page dealing with charging.
https://earthxbatteries.com/our-batteries/battery-charging
Very first sentence:
EarthX lithium batteries can sit on the shelf for up to a year without the need to charge it due to the low self discharge rate which is about 2% a month, compared to a lead acid battery which is approximately 30% per month.
Obviously, you could have gotten a defective battery. Or, was it stored in freezing temps, or with a parasitic load, etc?
I'm playing Luddite on the lithium in a/c issue for now, because I'm not convinced that enough has been *proven* about failure modes. Especially with stuff like EX's built-in 'black box' BMS. (No, I don't accept the FAA's word for it; they approved a bad crankshaft design from Lyc and *multiple* bad crankshaft designs from Continental.) The company is very active on the VAF forum, and their answers to some technical questions made it obvious that their public-facing rep is very short on engineering chops. One area that makes absolutely no sense is the claim they made over on VAF that their battery (actually a battery *system*, since the controller is built-in), can disconnect from a charging system when there's an overvoltage event, without disconnecting from the load. Impressive, given that there are only two terminals on the battery...
It would be an easier sell for me if I had a separate BMS that really could block charge voltage and still supply the load, and that didn't auto-disconnect without operator control, and oh yeah, didn't cost roughly 10 X the price of my 'no-name' SLAs that last for 4-5 years on average.
Anyway, SLA batteries can go a year or more without recharging, as well, as long as they're not defective, not stored on a freezing environment, and there's no parasitic load.
Charlie
 Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:28 pm Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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I agree. Based on published specs it should have been okay. But 12 months on the shelf in my heated shop and it was dead. I should have contacted EarthX, but I just blamed myself and bit the bullet. Just one experience, probably an anomaly. Hopefully.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 1:02 PM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 6/16/2020 2:07 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
| Quote: | I let my fully charged EarthX sit for 12 months thinking it would be fine. It was not. It was completely discharged and would not take a re-charge.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 8:49 AM Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 11:08 AM bcone1381 <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bcone1381" <bcone1964(at)gmail.com (bcone1964(at)gmail.com)>
Vic Syracuse has an article in this months Sport Aviation (June 2020) that deals with Batteries and Alternators.
he says not to mistreat a battery by constantly leaving it on a non approved battery tender/charger between flight.
Help me understand what an "approved charger" or what to avoid. Specific products will be good. May I assume maybe there are different chargers for different battery types?
--------
Brooks Cone
Bearhawk Patrol Kit Build |
I haven't read the article yet, but suspect he's talking about 'trickle chargers' that can output significantly higher than desirable voltage when the battery is fully charged and no longer loads the charger's output. This results in overcharging and shortening of the battery's life. Even with 'smart' chargers, if you don't monitor what they're doing, they could develop faults that would overcharge the battery.
Here's the thing. With any current-tech sealed lead acid battery, or any lithium tech battery, their self discharge rates are so low that they will go for months, or even years, without being connected to a charger. Unless you only fly once a year, you're unlikely to ever need an external charge as long as the battery is healthy enough to be safe to fly with. I've had years in the past decade when family responsibilities kept my flying down to about 5-10 hrs a year, and I still rarely needed to charge the battery in my plane. My choice is to 'just (don't) do it', unless I've done something stupid like leave a load on the battery while I'm not flying. If it's not there, it can't hurt the battery. I'm uncomfortable with even leaving a smart charger connected to a battery when I'm not around to check on it occasionally, because a catastrophic fault could damage a lot more than the charger/battery combo.
FWIW,
Charlie
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Hmmm...
From the EarthX website on the page dealing with charging.
https://earthxbatteries.com/our-batteries/battery-charging
Very first sentence:
EarthX lithium batteries can sit on the shelf for up to a year without the need to charge it due to the low self discharge rate which is about 2% a month, compared to a lead acid battery which is approximately 30% per month.
Obviously, you could have gotten a defective battery. Or, was it stored in freezing temps, or with a parasitic load, etc?
I'm playing Luddite on the lithium in a/c issue for now, because I'm not convinced that enough has been *proven* about failure modes. Especially with stuff like EX's built-in 'black box' BMS. (No, I don't accept the FAA's word for it; they approved a bad crankshaft design from Lyc and *multiple* bad crankshaft designs from Continental.) The company is very active on the VAF forum, and their answers to some technical questions made it obvious that their public-facing rep is very short on engineering chops. One area that makes absolutely no sense is the claim they made over on VAF that their battery (actually a battery *system*, since the controller is built-in), can disconnect from a charging system when there's an overvoltage event, without disconnecting from the load. Impressive, given that there are only two terminals on the battery...
It would be an easier sell for me if I had a separate BMS that really could block charge voltage and still supply the load, and that didn't auto-disconnect without operator control, and oh yeah, didn't cost roughly 10 X the price of my 'no-name' SLAs that last for 4-5 years on average.
Anyway, SLA batteries can go a year or more without recharging, as well, as long as they're not defective, not stored on a freezing environment, and there's no parasitic load.
Charlie
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#m_7123981709312888432_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
|
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skywagon185(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:27 am Post subject: With Flooded cells, at what discharge does damage start? |
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Solar charger.....
These are wonderful for certain applications, but, not for flooded 12v common batteries. A "12v panel", can raise to 18v on a sunny day.
Even if it is only pumping out 0.1 amp, that will overcharge most lead acid batteries eventually, leading to "gassing".
A cheap fix possible for using a low current panel is to trap the voltage output with a zener type diode or similar chosen to shunt current at some recommended voltage.
On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 5:41 PM Ernest Christley <echristley(at)att.net (echristley(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Would a solar trickle charger help? I got one off Amazon for less than $15 that is flexible and tops out at 14.4V.
On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 10:25:34 AM EDT, Steve Stearns <steve(at)tomasara.com (steve(at)tomasara.com)> wrote:
Greetings,
This isn't a relevant question for modern aircraft but I think the membership of this list will likely know so I hope I don't bother anyone by posting here.
If you have a rarely used car with a traditional flooded cell lead-acid battery and keep an eye on the battery voltage, at what voltage should it be recharged to maintain a normal life? My old jeep has a small load while parked so the battery slowly drains and it is neither convenient for me to disconnect the battery nor keep a maintainer connected. If I charge it back up with my smart charger before the (nominally 70deg f) battery voltage drops to say, 12V will I still get full life out of the battery?
Thanks in advance,
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze
Boulder/Longmont CO
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List |
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