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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
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 Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:29 am Post subject: Re : IFR certification |
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Hi John,
I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got away with it"
I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds.
I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use.
Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary"
Cheers, Paul
On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net (johnwigney(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Jeff,
There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations
I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way.
Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205.
Cheers, John
[img]cid:172b999e8f3961b9b011[/img] [img]cid:172b999e8f52c8b2ee62[/img]
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> (topglock(at)cox.net)
Subject: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, -- Jeff
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:02 am Post subject: Re : IFR certification |
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Great write-up Paul, thx!
Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up?
| Quote: | On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi John,
I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got away with it"
I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds.
I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use.
Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary"
Cheers, Paul
On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net (johnwigney(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Jeff,
There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations
I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way.
Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205.
Cheers, John
<ehkjefpnnmjodmme.png>
<dikifmecfindfhgo.png>
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> (topglock(at)cox.net)
Subject: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, -- Jeff
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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cakeykev(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:15 am Post subject: Re : IFR certification |
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I did my imc training in my trigear
No problems at all.
I know some aircraft are more stable but to say it’s not a good IFR aircraft is not what I have found.
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
[quote] On 16 Jun 2020, at 18:06, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
Great write-up Paul, thx!
Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up?
>> On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got away with it"
>
> I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds.
>
> I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary"
>
> Cheers, Paul
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net> wrote:
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations
>>
>> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way.
>>
>> Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:15 pm Post subject: Re : IFR certification |
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Pete, for a while I did my practice currency this way. I could actually fly
an approach at 90 knots and still get it slow enough to get the gear out
and land. The trouble with this was that you only needed the slightest
distraction and you would be joining the ranks of “those who have”
The other challenge is that it was rare to break out in the clear, cloud
bottoms would be straggly and when you are at minimums you have to quickly
decide if the RVR is sufficient, you have enough of the environment in view
and the the runway will provide enough breaking action.
To be honest I always found single pilot IFR really tough and during my
brief stint of professional flying I thought I had died and gone to heaven
with 2 crew operations.
Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers, Paul
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:06 PM Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:
[quote] Great write-up Paul, thx!
Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up?
On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi John,
I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my
Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high
personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I
live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one
should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up
ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft
performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had
happened was "I got away with it"
I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft
immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying
there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was
really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we
should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many
times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible
conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that
its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You
feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds.
I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR
flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from
somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace
System (NAS) a delight to use.
Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary"
Cheers, Paul
On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net>
wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> There is a good link on this subject at
> https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations
>
> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my
> monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a
> good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to
> fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to
> be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15
> degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now
> fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well
> following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary
> concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:53 pm Post subject: Re : IFR certification |
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Pretty valuable pennies! Thx!
Pete 
| Quote: | On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:26 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Pete, for a while I did my practice currency this way. I could actually fly an approach at 90 knots and still get it slow enough to get the gear out and land. The trouble with this was that you only needed the slightest distraction and you would be joining the ranks of “those who have”
The other challenge is that it was rare to break out in the clear, cloud bottoms would be straggly and when you are at minimums you have to quickly decide if the RVR is sufficient, you have enough of the environment in view and the the runway will provide enough breaking action.
To be honest I always found single pilot IFR really tough and during my brief stint of professional flying I thought I had died and gone to heaven with 2 crew operations.
Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers, Paul
On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:06 PM Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Great write-up Paul, thx!
Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up?
| Quote: | On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Hi John,
I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got away with it"
I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds.
I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use.
Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary"
Cheers, Paul
On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney <johnwigney(at)windstream.net (johnwigney(at)windstream.net)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hi Jeff,
There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations
I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way.
Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205.
Cheers, John
<ehkjefpnnmjodmme.png>
<dikifmecfindfhgo.png>
From: Jeff B <topglock(at)cox.net> (topglock(at)cox.net)
Subject: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, -- Jeff
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Re : IFR certification |
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I think our IFR experience in our Europa is like John’s. Granted we mostly use IFR to climb or descend thru a cloud deck and for ATC services, especially in congested or unfamiliar airspace. Since there is no snow removal at our airport, we do not fly much in January or February.
However, we have found our Europa carries ice without adversely changing the performance. Obviously we try to avoid icing and usually do. We have a conventional heated pitot which draws about 8 amps but with our modified voltage regulator, we have capacity so it can be used if necessary. There are more efficient pitots available today.
Since fitting an adjustable cowl flap, cabin heat and windscreen defogging is much less a problem than originally.
Jim, with the guidance of his regular CFII, has developed detailed IFR procedures that provide consistent results. He flies approaches frequently enough to maintain “legal” proficiency and he now completes both a Biannual Flight Review and Instrument Proficiency Check every twelve months (helps with insurance).
Our Europa flies “hands off” when properly trimmed (both pitch and aileron trim) and we have no autopilot, so all piloting is by hand. Approaches are flown at cruise settings until reaching the Final Approach Fix (FAF) at which point the airplane is changed to landing configuration (gear/flaps down, power and pitch for appropriate rate of descent (usually 500 fpm) and 60 kts).
Having an EFIS makes the mechanics of approaches easier because the information is presented efficiently. The velocity vector feature of our GRT EFIS reduces “chasing” the needles. Our navigation source is a Garmin GNS 430, so all approaches are setup and performed in a similar manner. Understanding how the GNS 430 operates and having the skill to use its features is key to IFR flight.
Jim & Heather
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