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Tailwind1
Joined: 05 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
Location: GREYBULL, WY
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 Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 am Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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Hello all, I am new to the forum,
I am building a Wittman Tailwind W10 powered by a Lyc O360 carbureted engine using two Light Speed Engineering electronic ignitions and a single PC680 battery. I am planning on using a Z13-8 based system with a B&C BC410 main alt and a SD8 stby alt. My proposed modification is to connect the SD8 to the E buss rather than the batttery bus or main buss (see attachment) My reasoning is that should the battery fail somehow, the battery can be isolated and the SD8 could run the E buss, it could also be used to charge the battery with the alternate feed relay closed and the main battery relay open/alt off. I plan on incorporating the self energizing circuit for the SD8 (is this required with the newer SD8 system?).
Please understand that my attached diagram is conceptual and still lacks circuit protection illustration. Klause Savior of LSE recommends connecting the ignition power and ground (shielding) directly to the battery with no circuit protection until the 5 A breakers installed in the panel. I hope to incorporate a switch to allow one ignition to be run off of either the Battery buss or E buss in case of battery failure.
I wonder if anyone can comment on the advisability/workability of connecting the SD8 in this manner, the advisability of not putting circuit protection at the battery connections for the ignitions, and the need or lack of need for the self energizing feature for the SD8 (it is kind of complicated).
Thanks very much. Tim M
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_________________
Flying Sonerai II with A80 Continental. Wittman W10 Tailwind under construction, O360, dual LSE electronic ignition, airframe complete and covered, engine hung, cowl built. Working on electrical, instrumentation, and other details. |
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1922
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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Link to discussion of the SD8 self energizing circuit:
http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11971&view=previous&sid=8d09bfcf265444a653c4d15375aa3b74
If you think that both the main alternator and the battery will fail on the same flight, then yes,
you need the self energizing feature for the SD8. It might seem complicated to you, but you can do it.
Klause Savior thinks that the battery is one of the most reliable things in an airplane. It is more reliable than a pilot.
Consider using diodes instead of a switch to choose between the battery bus or E-bus. Diodes are more reliable than
switches and diodes eliminate pilot error and pilot workload in this application.
Batteries supply the ignition source for fires following off airport landings.
The pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:02 am Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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I just did this while adding on a surefly ignition to my plane. I used
2 of the
larger dual schottky diodes, with the ouput side of them all joined together
to the EI power input. Each one is on it's own fuse or breaker, one being
to the E-Bus and one to the Main Bus, with a 3rd to the main battery itself,
but I did run it through a switch because I didn't want any always-hot
circuits
under the panel. The 4th diode is essentially a "spare" for the others.
It is actually pretty simple to do.
Tim
On 9/22/2020 12:30 PM, user9253 wrote:
| Quote: |
Link to discussion of the SD8 self energizing circuit:
http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11971&view=previous&sid=8d09bfcf265444a653c4d15375aa3b74
If you think that both the main alternator and the battery will fail on the same flight, then yes, you need the self energizing feature for the SD8.
It might seem complicated to you, but you can do it.
Klause Savior thinks that the battery is one of the most reliable things in an airplane. It is more reliable than a pilot.
Consider using diodes instead of a switch to choose between the battery bus or E-bus. Diodes are more reliable than
switches and diodes eliminate pilot error and pilot workload in this application.
Batteries supply the ignition source for fires following off airport landings.
The pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498500#498500
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Tailwind1
Joined: 05 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
Location: GREYBULL, WY
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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| user9253 wrote: | Link to discussion of the SD8 self energizing circuit:
http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11971&view=previous&sid=8d09bfcf265444a653c4d15375aa3b74
If you think that both the main alternator and the battery will fail on the same flight, then yes,
you need the self energizing feature for the SD8. It might seem complicated to you, but you can do it.
Klause Savior thinks that the battery is one of the most reliable things in an airplane. It is more reliable than a pilot.
Consider using diodes instead of a switch to choose between the battery bus or E-bus. Diodes are more reliable than
switches and diodes eliminate pilot error and pilot workload in this application.
Batteries supply the ignition source for fires following off airport landings.
The pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible. |
I am aware of the need to be able to shut off power near the source but cannot think of a reliable way to do this with ignitions connected to a battery buss, surely don’t want to use a relay (for reliability) and the switches will be about 4’ of wire away from the battery on the firewall, as to using diodes “instead” of switches, one switch is certainly required to be able to shut off the ignition so I was thinking of using one single pole on/off/on switch to be able to select either power source, this allows power source selection without adding another switch to the circuit. I see the benefit of diodes but they would also be added to the switch in the circuit so would allow auto-switching but not increase reliability...what am I missing?
Thanks
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_________________
Flying Sonerai II with A80 Continental. Wittman W10 Tailwind under construction, O360, dual LSE electronic ignition, airframe complete and covered, engine hung, cowl built. Working on electrical, instrumentation, and other details. |
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:08 am Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 7:54 AM Tailwind1 <timmikus38(at)gmail.com (timmikus38(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tailwind1" <timmikus38(at)gmail.com (timmikus38(at)gmail.com)>
user9253 wrote:
> Link to discussion of the SD8 self energizing circuit:
> http://www.matronics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11971&view=previous&sid=8d09bfcf265444a653c4d15375aa3b74
> If you think that both the main alternator and the battery will fail on the same flight, then yes,
> you need the self energizing feature for the SD8. It might seem complicated to you, but you can do it.
> Klause Savior thinks that the battery is one of the most reliable things in an airplane. It is more reliable than a pilot.
> Consider using diodes instead of a switch to choose between the battery bus or E-bus. Diodes are more reliable than
> switches and diodes eliminate pilot error and pilot workload in this application.
> Batteries supply the ignition source for fires following off airport landings.
> The pilot should have the ability to shut off all electrical power as close to the source as possible.
I am aware of the need to be able to shut off power near the source but cannot think of a reliable way to do this with ignitions connected to a battery buss, surely don’t want to use a relay (for reliability) and the switches will be about 4’ of wire away from the battery on the firewall, as to using diodes “instead” of switches, one switch is certainly required to be able to shut off the ignition so I was thinking of using one single pole on/off/on switch to be able to select either power source, this allows power source selection without adding another switch to the circuit. I see the benefit of diodes but they would also be added to the switch in the circuit so would allow auto-switching but not increase reliability...what am I missing?
Thanks
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While you can buy very reliable switches, it's still likely to be the least reliable component in the chain. From a pure FMEA standpoint, a mechanical failure (and some electrical failures) in the switch will take out both power sources to the ignition. Perhaps looking at the E in FMEA is appropriate. The effect of losing one ignition, for whatever reason, is slightly reduced fuel efficiency/power. It shouldn't put you on the ground. That might simplify decision making (and devices).
To protect the wire itself, I like using fusible links. For light consumers like the ignitions, a few inches of 22ga wire at the battery bus (sleeved with a fiberglass jacket) soldered to 18ga wire feeding the switch/ignition will protect the always-hot section of wire from catastrophic faults.
Charlie
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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:49 pm Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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[img]cid:ii_kffwu5010[/img]
From the Lightspeed installation manual. I was working toward improving on the factory recommendation in this document. While a fusible link won't be as fast as a fuse, it seems better than a 5 or 6 foot long always hot wire to the CB.
Charlie
On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:26 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: |
To protect the wire itself, I like using fusible links. For light consumers like the ignitions, a few inches of 22ga wire at the battery bus (sleeved with a fiberglass jacket) soldered to 18ga wire feeding the switch/ignition will protect the always-hot section of wire from catastrophic faults. |
but doesn't satisfy the crash safety condition
Fusible links are generally limited to use in
areas protected by battery master but included
to isolate hard-faulted feeders from the remainder
of normally functioning distribution.
The battery bus should (1) drive fuse or breaker
protected feeders at 7A or smaller -OR- if protection
is larger, then a relay at the bus to manage that
feeder's crash safety recommendations.
Bob . . .
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kjashton(at)vnet.net
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:49 am Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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I use dual Lightspeeds in my Cozy. Direct feed off the batteries forward about 8’ to the switches and back to the LSE boxes in back. Of course, the wire is in a non-conductive composite airplane but I do not worry about the wire shorting in a crash. There is no telling what can happen in a crash. Maybe the battery gets ripped loose in a hard crash and shorts on your airframe or part of the metal in the airframe crushes on the battery and creates a dead short. I suppose the idea for a fusible link is OK but 4 wire-sizes smaller than the 18 awg shielded wire Klaus recommends is pretty small wire. I would rather have the more robust, continuous wire with no solder joints and shrink-wrap, install it carefully, protected against rubs and vibration.
-Kent
| Quote: | On Sep 24, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Tailwind1 <timmikus38(at)gmail.com> wrote:
nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
>
>>
>> To protect the wire itself, I like using fusible links. For light consumers like the ignitions, a few inches of 22ga wire at the battery bus (sleeved with a fiberglass jacket) soldered to 18ga wire feeding the switch/ignition will protect the always-hot section of wire from catastrophic faults.
>
> but doesn't satisfy the crash safety condition
>
> Fusible links are generally limited to use in
> areas protected by battery master but included
> to isolate hard-faulted feeders from the remainder
> of normally functioning distribution.
>
> The battery bus should (1) drive fuse or breaker
> protected feeders at 7A or smaller -OR- if protection
> is larger, then a relay at the bus to manage that
> feeder's crash safety recommendations.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Bob, am I understanding correctly from your above statement that fusible links are NOT a good alternative for a fuse block AT the battery bus in this case?
I was looking at the links to simplify and avoid the extra fuse block but are the links too slow for the crash safety aspect of this (say a 22AWG link and 18 AWG feeder wire with the 5A pullable breaker at the cockpit end as per the LSE recomendation)?. I will install a fuse block for the batt bus items if this is the recommended procedure.
Also, what are your thoughts on the LSE manual procedure of using the wire shield as a ground return versus a separate conductor? Seems to be possibly be less robust?
Thanks, Tim M
--------
Flying Sonerai II with A80 Continental. Wittman W10 Tailwind under construction, O360, dual LSE electronic ignition, airframe complete and covered, engine hung, cowl built. Working on electrical, instrumentation, and other details.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498513#498513
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:17 am Post subject: Z13-8 modification and LSE ignition wiring |
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Well, for one thing I don't think fuses react to voltage. I think they react to current.
On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 7:17 PM Tailwind1 <timmikus38(at)gmail.com (timmikus38(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tailwind1" <timmikus38(at)gmail.com (timmikus38(at)gmail.com)>
When asked , Klaus stated that his reasoning for the pullable breakers at the panel was that an overvoltage or lightening strike could open the breaker and it could be reset whereas a fuse could not, any thoughts on this?
Tim M
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Flying Sonerai II with A80 Continental. Wittman W10 Tailwind under construction, O360, dual LSE electronic ignition, airframe complete and covered, engine hung, cowl built. Working on electrical, instrumentation, and other details.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=498522#498522
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