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arcticarrow(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:30 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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Garmin provides stainless hardware for grounding studs for some of its electronics. Would stainless be a problem for attaching the grounding forest (brass/copper) to an aluminum airframe?
Bernie Willis
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:57 am Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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At 10:23 PM 11/5/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com>
Garmin provides stainless hardware for grounding studs for some of its electronics. Would stainless be a problem for attaching the grounding forest (brass/copper) to an aluminum airframe?
Bernie Willis |
Generally no problem.
Dissimilar metals have three fundamental characteristics
that manifest in not-so-obvious thermoelectric qualities.
See: https://tinyurl.com/pmare2c
For the purposes of this discussion, we're interested
in the potential for extra ordinary corrosion in the
interface of the two materials . . . corrosion that
degrades electrical conduction and perhaps promotes
structural destruction.
This risk moves forward only if there is water (or
other ionic fluid) present. The cited Seebeck effect
manifests as a tiny battery created by molecular
differences in two metals. Not a problem in a dry
condition but when conductive moisture is present,
electrons will flow through the liquid between
the two battery poles. Those electrons MUST come
from the more negative of the two poles. I.e.
that battery electrode 'rusts' due to the flow
of current external to the electrodes.
This gives rise to the sacred concept of gas-tight
connections. If the void between the potentially
antagonistic metals is reduce to zero, then
moisture and oxygen necessary to promote
atmospheric rust -AND- electrolytic rust cannot
enter and the joint is secure. The outside
surfaces might show signs of corrosion but
the parts that matter are secure in their
assembly.
Examples of these phenomenon are
illustrated by the accelerated destruction
of metals in a marine environment. I have
visited this example of extreme corrosion
on Flamenco Beach, Culebra Island, PR
https://tinyurl.com/y33t3a62
Massive volumes of metal have be completely
dissolved away into the surf.
The short answer is: Stainless hardware does
not offer risk if (1) it's not routinely
wet and (2) the conducting surface interfaces
are adequately compressed to achieve gas-tight
joints.
Bob . . .
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arcticarrow(at)GMail.com
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:38 am Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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BobThank you! I’ll leave the stainless hardware in place. But in the future is the stainless preferred over cadmium plated steel or brass?
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
| Quote: | On Nov 6, 2020, at 6:05 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
 At 10:23 PM 11/5/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com>
Garmin provides stainless hardware for grounding studs for some of its electronics. Would stainless be a problem for attaching the grounding forest (brass/copper) to an aluminum airframe?
Bernie Willis |
Generally no problem.
Dissimilar metals have three fundamental characteristics
that manifest in not-so-obvious thermoelectric qualities.
See: https://tinyurl.com/pmare2c
For the purposes of this discussion, we're interested
in the potential for extra ordinary corrosion in the
interface of the two materials . . . corrosion that
degrades electrical conduction and perhaps promotes
structural destruction.
This risk moves forward only if there is water (or
other ionic fluid) present. The cited Seebeck effect
manifests as a tiny battery created by molecular
differences in two metals. Not a problem in a dry
condition but when conductive moisture is present,
electrons will flow through the liquid between
the two battery poles. Those electrons MUST come
from the more negative of the two poles. I.e.
that battery electrode 'rusts' due to the flow
of current external to the electrodes.
This gives rise to the sacred concept of gas-tight
connections. If the void between the potentially
antagonistic metals is reduce to zero, then
moisture and oxygen necessary to promote
atmospheric rust -AND- electrolytic rust cannot
enter and the joint is secure. The outside
surfaces might show signs of corrosion but
the parts that matter are secure in their
assembly.
Examples of these phenomenon are
illustrated by the accelerated destruction
of metals in a marine environment. I have
visited this example of extreme corrosion
on Flamenco Beach, Culebra Island, PR
https://tinyurl.com/y33t3a62
Massive volumes of metal have be completely
dissolved away into the surf.
The short answer is: Stainless hardware does
not offer risk if (1) it's not routinely
wet and (2) the conducting surface interfaces
are adequately compressed to achieve gas-tight
joints.
Bob . . .
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sremerez(at)mailfence.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:08 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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Bob,
Do you think that coating these dissimilar metal connections with dielectric grease will reduce corrosion down to a bare minimum? I've used this grease on connections, but they haven't had the long term torch test yet. I also know that wire nuts filled with dielectric grease from the factory are used to make connections underground. In general, I believe any metal can be corrosion free if coated with dielectric grease, since it stops penetration of humidity and water if applied correctly.
What do you think of dielectric grease for this application?
Simon
November 6, 2020 3:52:16 PM CET "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote: | Quote: | "> At 10:23 PM 11/5/2020, you wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bernie Willis <arcticarrow(at)gmail.com>
Garmin provides stainless hardware for grounding studs for some of its electronics. Would stainless be a problem for attaching the grounding forest (brass/copper) to an aluminum airframe?
Bernie Willis |
Generally no problem.
Dissimilar metals have three fundamental characteristics
that manifest in not-so-obvious thermoelectric qualities.
See: https://tinyurl.com/pmare2c
For the purposes of this discussion, we're interested
in the potential for extra ordinary corrosion in the
interface of the two materials . . . corrosion that
degrades electrical conduction and perhaps promotes
structural destruction.
This risk moves forward only if there is water (or
other ionic fluid) present. The cited Seebeck effect
manifests as a tiny battery created by molecular
differences in two metals. Not a problem in a dry
condition but when conductive moisture is present,
electrons will flow through the liquid between
the two battery poles. Those electrons MUST come
from the more negative of the two poles. I.e.
that battery electrode 'rusts' due to the flow
of current external to the electrodes.
This gives rise to the sacred concept of gas-tight
connections. If the void between the potentially
antagonistic metals is reduce to zero, then
moisture and oxygen necessary to promote
atmospheric rust -AND- electrolytic rust cannot
enter and the joint is secure. The outside
surfaces might show signs of corrosion but
the parts that matter are secure in their
assembly.
Examples of these phenomenon are
illustrated by the accelerated destruction
of metals in a marine environment. I have
visited this example of extreme corrosion
on Flamenco Beach, Culebra Island, PR
https://tinyurl.com/y33t3a62
Massive volumes of metal have be completely
dissolved away into the surf.
The short answer is: Stainless hardware does
not offer risk if (1) it's not routinely
wet and (2) the conducting surface interfaces
are adequately compressed to achieve gas-tight
joints.
Bob . . . |
--Sent from Mailfence.com - Secure encrypted email
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dissimiliar metals |
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I have never seen conductive grease. Putting grease on connectors will not
hurt much except for adding a gram of weight and being a little messy.
A good connection will force the grease out, allowing metal to metal contact.
The grease that is forced out will resist water and high humidity air from getting in.
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Joe Gores |
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:53 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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Now you have. https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-Carbon-Conductive-Grease/dp/B005T8ROWA/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=conductive+grease&qid=1604796349&sr=8-3
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 7, 2020, at 7:17 PM, user9253 <fransew(at)gmail.com> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>
I have never seen conductive grease. Putting grease on connectors will not
hurt much except for adding a gram of weight and being a little messy.
A good connection will force the grease out, allowing metal to metal contact.
The grease that is forced out will resist water and high humidity air from getting in.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499293#499293
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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There must be a use for that stuff, but I wouldn't want to risk it in an a/c. Dielectric grease will keep oxygen/water out of connectors without bridging between the terminals.
How would you ensure that you avoid bridging, with conductive grease inside the shell?
Charlie
On 11/7/2020 6:47 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
 Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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I use dielectric grease in my auto and motorcycle connectors. It works great for corrosion protection and no danger of shorting one circuit to another.
I only posted the link because someone said they had never seen a conductive grease. There are greases that conduct electricity and that conduct heat. And probably some that do both.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 7, 2020, at 8:46 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
 There must be a use for that stuff, but I wouldn't want to risk it in an a/c. Dielectric grease will keep oxygen/water out of connectors without bridging between the terminals.
How would you ensure that you avoid bridging, with conductive grease inside the shell?
Charlie
On 11/7/2020 6:47 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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sremerez(at)mailfence.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:12 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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You wouldn't have to ensure. Diaelectric grease is an insulator. At RF frequencies, it has an impedance of 75 degrees. That's why they use it in RF connectors - to extend the 75 Ohms through like the cable's dielectric. Here is a paragraph out of Wiki for "diaelectric grease."
As a sealant around electrical contacts[edit]
Silicone greases are electrically insulating and are often applied to electrical connectors, particularly those containing rubber gaskets, as a means of sealing and protecting the connector. In this context they are often referred to as dielectric grease.[8][9]
A common use of this type is in the high-voltage connection associated with gasoline-engine spark plugs, where grease is applied to the rubber boot of the plug wire to help it slide onto the ceramic insulator of the plug, to seal the rubber boot, and to prevent the rubber's adhesion to the ceramic. Such greases are formulated to withstand the high temperature generally associated with the areas in which spark plugs are located, and can be applied to contacts as well (because the contact pressure is sufficient to penetrate the grease film). Doing so on such high-pressure contact surfaces between different metals has the further advantage of sealing the contact area against electrolytes that might cause rapid deterioration of the metals by galvanic corrosion.[10]
Silicone grease can decompose to form an insulating layer at or next to switch contacts that experience arcing, and contamination can cause the contacts to prematurely fail.
November 8, 2020 2:32:23 AM CET Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote: | Quote: | "> There must be a use for that stuff, but I wouldn't want to risk it in an a/c. Dielectric grease will keep oxygen/water out of connectors without bridging between the terminals.
How would you ensure that you avoid bridging, with conductive grease inside the shell?
Charlie
On 11/7/2020 6:47 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:17 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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At 05:02 PM 11/7/2020, you wrote:
Bob,
Do you think that coating these dissimilar metal connections with dielectric grease will reduce corrosion down to a bare minimum? I've used this grease on connections, but they haven't had the long term torch test yet. I also know that wire nuts filled with dielectric grease from the factory are used to make connections underground. In general, I believe any metal can be corrosion free if coated with dielectric grease, since it stops penetration of humidity and water if applied correctly.
What do you think of dielectric grease for this application?
Simon
Never seen it done in aircraft. By definition.
a properly assembled, gas-tight joint would have
no voids at-risk for contamination. Further,
any grease (a viscous liquid) in the joint
would be squeezed out as the joint was made
up.
Most of the dielectric greases I've encountered
are a silicon based chemistry . . . the stuff
'migrates'. Put a little dab onto a flat surface
and set it aside for a couple months . . . it will
become much larger in diameter with time.
I suspect quality is fundamental to the 'water
displacement' claim for such products. Certainly
useful if there are gaps that water can enter . . .
like ignition components on your car that
should have been replaced some time ago. I
used to wash down my car engines with high
pressure, soap water with some frequency.
If it was reluctant to start up and drive
out of the car wash, STUFF GOT REPLACED.
Hawker/Beech management expressed an interest
in several 'joint enhancement' nostrums. I was
tasked with researching this product.
https://tinyurl.com/y6m9xsov
One of several avenues of inquiry I made
was to application engineers at TycoAmp,
Molex and several others. Paraphrasing
their responses, they generally ran along this
line:
"Say what?!?! . . . you make us jump through
the myriad of hoops proposed by DO-160, Mil-
Std-460/461, MIL-STD-810, ad nauseam and you
have the temerity to ask if painting our
products with this 'stuff' would enhance their
performance?
The general consensus was: "If you have a NEW
requirement, then articulate it in your next
purchase order and we'll do our best to meet
that requirement. But be forewarned, any expenses
incurred by us to meet this NEW requirement will
be passed along in the request for quotation."
So this begs the questions:
(a) Are there any perceived inadequacies in
the demonstrated service life of a component?
(b) Are those inadequacies determined to be . . .
(1) the byproduct of poor design or
manufacturing?
(2) inattention to installation details?
(c) Why was the potential for those inadequacies
not addressed in the initial procurement
specification for the product?
The fact that things like Stabilant 22 exist
suggests one of two conditions:
(a) The product's design goals were deficient.
(b) The product has been in service longer
than the expected design goals.
The short answer is:
Be wary of any suggestion that some goop,
goo or magic elixir will enhance the performance
of ANY product. I can confidently assert that
99% of those claims are not founded in demonstrable
practice/physics.
The remaining 1% are represented by products/
companies that are out of business.
After months of not terribly intense
investigation the short answer was:
The techniques defined by our process
specifications have a demonstrated track
record. Further, there are no
DEFICIENCIES for established design
goals addressed by legacy process/procurement
specifications.
As a minor aside: Any suggestion that installation
techs be asked to carry a bottle of Stabilant
22 in their toolbox was greeted with a stare
that could be lethal.
So . . . do it right the first time and you
won't have to do it over in the future. This
isn't rocket science. It's a shop-practice
refined and defined by 100 years of experience
in the field.
Bob . . .
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:29 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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At 06:47 PM 11/7/2020, you wrote:
Th8i stuff is scary . . . if it's a 'mobile' as
silicone based products cite in earlier post . . .
well . . . before using any such thing on your
project's electrical parts you need to determine:
(a) was my initial section of part/process in error?
(b) is there a demonstrable deficiency in the
performance of installed parts?
The study of history is not terribly revered
amongst members of the general public. I
suggest it is of PRIME importance in the
practice of our craft.
If there is a perceived value for applying some
new or novel product to your project, you would
do well to:
(1) understand the physics behind any shortcoming
in proposed material/processes followed up with:
(2) "Gee, did I neglect a the wisdom offered by
folks who have already been-there-done-that?
Bob . . .
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bob.verwey(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:26 pm Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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Hey Joe...what about Copper Slip? Â
On Sun, 08 Nov 2020, 02:17 user9253, <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com (fransew(at)gmail.com)>
I have never seen conductive grease. Putting grease on connectors will not
hurt much except for adding a gram of weight and being a little messy.
A good connection will force the grease out, allowing metal to metal contact.
The grease that is forced out will resist water and high humidity air from getting in.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499293#499293
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:10 am Post subject: Dissimiliar metals |
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I never suggested using it in an aircraft. Someone said they had never seen a conductive grease as though they thought such an animal did not exist. I was providing existence proof.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 7, 2020, at 11:34 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com> wrote:
 At 06:47 PM 11/7/2020, you wrote:
Th8i stuff is scary . . . if it's a 'mobile' as
silicone based products cite in earlier post . . .
well . . . before using any such thing on your
project's electrical parts you need to determine:
(a) was my initial section of part/process in error?
(b) is there a demonstrable deficiency in the
performance of installed parts?
The study of history is not terribly revered
amongst members of the general public. I
suggest it is of PRIME importance in the
practice of our craft.
If there is a perceived value for applying some
new or novel product to your project, you would
do well to:
(1) understand the physics behind any shortcoming
in proposed material/processes followed up with:
(2) "Gee, did I neglect a the wisdom offered by
folks who have already been-there-done-that?
Bob . . .
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user9253
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1925
Location: Riley TWP Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:47 am Post subject: Conductive Grease |
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I think that any grease product advertised as conductive will not help conduct
electrical current found in our airplanes. It might help to conduct static
electricity. If anyone has some conductive grease, please measure its
resistance with an ohmmeter and let us know the results. I predict the
resistance will be infinite. Notice that these products do not claim to be
"electrically" conductive. They are thermally conductive. Yes, the products
might be recommended for electrical connections. But they do not conduct
electricity, at least not at the voltages and frequencies found in our airplanes.
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Joe Gores |
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